the rum soaked fist: internal martial arts forum

I'll just preface this by saying my teacher told me I could start learning push hands if I wanted to, and showed me single hand push hands, and i've been to a few push hands classes before.

But, I have heard various tales over when a student should learn push hands. According to CZL (iirc), students would start push hands after the first year of forms training. Sun Lutang was even more ambitious, suggesting as little as six months. On the DAOI server someone said that in their school push hands was taught from the beginning.

On the other side of the coin, there seems to be the opinion that push hands shouldn't be started until possibly many years after practice -- as many as 10. That there needs to be some kind of breakthrough into "something" -- I am not sure what -- dantian rotation, qi movement, not sure.

So I am here to ask the respected citizens of rumsoakedfist, when do you think a student, in general, should start push hands training? I am not looking to push people into it "as soon as possible" neither do I want to delay someone's training. But, when is a reasonable, rational time to begin? Thanks.

p.s. I am talking about cooperative push hands of the various kinds, at least in the beginning, as described, for example, in the Wang Fengming book, or the Ma Hong video. Not necessarily competitive push hands, which I believe comes later.

Any place that forces you to wait more than a few months is a scam IMO. Ideally, it should be a definitive part of the curriculum, i.e. the "when" question should be answered implicitly.

P. S. cooperative part of PH training should be a tiny, tiny fraction of it; 99% of two-person training should be "cooperative" only on a philosophical level, i.e. you're trying to help each other learn.

Appledog wrote:I'll just preface this by saying my teacher told me I could start learning push hands if I wanted to, and showed me single hand push hands, and i've been to a few push hands classes before.

But, I have heard various tales over when a student should learn push hands. According to CZL (iirc), students would start push hands after the first year of forms training. Sun Lutang was even more ambitious, suggesting as little as six months. On the DAOI server someone said that in their school push hands was taught from the beginning.

On the other side of the coin, there seems to be the opinion that push hands shouldn't be started until possibly many years after practice -- as many as 10. That there needs to be some kind of breakthrough into "something" -- I am not sure what -- dantian rotation, qi movement, not sure.

All things that will answer themselves in time, with exposer to others having developed and use them.
Any type of taiji application is "push hands" ie uses the skill same skill set

So I am here to ask the respected citizens of rumsoakedfist, when do you think a student, in general, should start push hands training? I am not looking to push people into it "as soon as possible" neither do I want to delay someone's training. But, when is a reasonable, rational time to begin? Thanks.

Really depends on "the teachers focus" provided that it aligns with ones own. One of the bases for choosing a teacher.

p.s. I am talking about cooperative push hands of the various kinds, at least in the beginning, as described, for example, in the Wang Fengming book, or the Ma Hong video. Not necessarily competitive push hands, which I believe comes later.

You really have no basis to understand the differences between them.
There is no "competitive or cooperative" push hands. What some may view as competitive can look very different depending on level of people interacting...
What is viewed as cooperative, can look the same as "competitive" if practiced in the same way, both not understanding the point of the practice forsaking it feeling its something else.

In all cases the practice itself if viewed as some type of combat ie sparring practice can and will lead to bad outcomes if the expectation is that it can be used as such...
note the many long term practitioner fails shown when encountering those who "don't push hands" they punch face...

As a development tool ones practice will not get much beyond the basic levels of taiji practice and skill sets with out it.

I would say reading some of your other post, might be a good time to find some sparring partners and explore what you already know and feel you've. been working on...
See what is true what is not,,,arriving at an understanding of "why" true or not

Develop a course of action to address either or...



note: while in Taiwan, IME a lot of the teachers there talk of not using force ect, but will and do if they are not able to apply what they say they practice.
If someone says they are not using force, and one feels its is force, chances are it is "force".

best of luck...

some thoughts on the training

"When Mr. Wang Peisheng taught Taijiquan, he expounded the balance theory of “zero resultant force” many times. For example, when discussing “the four positive push hands rules and the relationship between Taijiquan and mechanics”, In the whole process of push hands martial arts, always keep your own resultant force at zero, which is balance."

Dmitri wrote:Any place that forces you to wait more than a few months is a scam IMO. Ideally, it should be a definitive part of the curriculum, i.e. the "when" question should be answered implicitly.

P. S. cooperative part of PH training should be a tiny, tiny fraction of it; 99% of two-person training should be "cooperative" only on a philosophical level, i.e. you're trying to help each other learn.

Yet surely there must be some demarcation line -- such as learning the form, first. What do you feel that line is, such that starting push hands will not lead to bad habits down the road?

windwalker wrote:All things that will answer themselves in time, with exposer to others having developed and use them.
Any type of taiji application is "push hands" ie uses the skill same skill set

Yes and no--the question being, what precisely the demarcation line is.

windwalker wrote:Really depends on "the teachers focus" provided that it aligns with ones own. One of the bases for choosing a teacher.

Given that some teachers are good and some are bad, and that it is impossible for a student to discern beforehand (unless posessing prior experience) I cannot accept this answer. In any case the question is not for myself but for teaching.

windwalker wrote:You really have no basis to understand the differences between them.

If you read my post I said I did. To try and clarify further, i'm not talking about myself. I already want to learn push hands and I am seeking out people to practice with. The case here is I have a small school set up and I'm looking for opinions on when to start push hands. I do have my own ideas but I kind of wanted to have a conversation about it.

windwalker wrote:I would say reading some of your other post, might be a good time to find some sparring partners and explore what you already know and feel you've. been working on...

Could be a good idea. Right now I am apart from my teacher, but I would rather go back for some more lessons before going out the door like that. My main question revolves around the allowance of my teacher that I practice push hands, and now, shall I teach my students or wait until they develop some relaxation and lightness first?

Cannot really tell if you being "allowed" to practice is the same as being allowed to teach / practice with your students. I learned some as a kid and taught my kids some when they were kids. Imo / ime, one can get some "soft" mechanics just as with getting mechanics of sports at a young age. For some people that's already the end-all, be-all. If so, may as well start asap at the youngest possible ages. However, if you get some exposure / only want to work on "internal", I think it's totally different. It makes me want to avoid push hands to avoid using "force" and to avoid a "dopamine hit" that doesn't help. As the stories all say, it's like starting over from square one.

If your question involves paying students, this sounds really complicated with possible conflicts of interest (learning "something" versus is it really the "something" you want to teach / they should learn). I assume that's why you bring it up.

I was introduced partner exercises and sensitivity drills from day one. Push hands drills at least within the first month. I was also introduced free push hands very early, in a cooperative, non-competitive manner.

IMO, an early introduction by a decent teacher is important so the student can get a better grasp of how Tai Chi should be used, and the level of softness and sensitivity required. Whole body movement and balance to be used in solo practice will also be better understood by studying partner exercises.

For me personally, push hands practice is a tool for developing enhanced tactile sensitivity to ever more subtle changes in speed, strength, power, pressure, direction of movement, etc, felt at the points of contact. As such, it is primarily focused on generating a greater sensory awareness of physical feeling, which provides invaluable personal feedback to practitioners of all skill levels from novices to experts. ymmv.

Appledog wrote:Yet surely there must be some demarcation line -- such as learning the form, first. What do you feel that line is, such that starting push hands will not lead to bad habits down the road?

I think completion of at least some section of the form is a minimum, because you need to do some solo "internal bodybuilding" before you drive into two-person work. Some initial, basic pre-PH drills can, and should, start as early as possible. Ultimately, the teacher (if they're good) should make decisions regarding "when" and "how advanced" the training should be for each student, according to their individual rate of progress.

on a side note, "internal bodybuilding" is a really good phrase

Appledog wrote:Yet surely there must be some demarcation line -- such as learning the form, first. What do you feel that line is, such that starting push hands will not lead to bad habits down the road?

You should start from day one. Will you build up bad habit? To think that MA is one person dancing art is bad habit.

If you understand your goal, you will find a path to reach to your goal. The earlier that you understand that MA is 2 persons art, the less chance that you will become a dancer through your CMA training.

Without any MA foundation and jump into PH right way, you may find out that you are an honest person. When you realize that to be honest in MA is not a good idea, you will then appreciate the concept of yield, borrow force, set up, ...

Bao wrote:I was introduced partner exercises and sensitivity drills from day one. Push hands drills at least within the first month. I was also introduced free push hands very early, in a cooperative, non-competitive manner.

IMO, an early introduction by a decent teacher is important so the student can get a better grasp of how Tai Chi should be used, and the level of softness and sensitivity required. Whole body movement and balance to be used in solo practice will also be better understood by studying partner exercises.

Yes

First day of training:

Nine Temple Qigong; storing intention in the bones - feeling/awareness of primordial 'dantien' - 13 Torso Methods

Properly Structured Sparring; applying structure to pressure - yielding structure to contact - following contact - listening with mind-intent

There are pushing hands exercises like the 7 point push designed to enhance your basic structure
They should be taught from day one
If you have to ask when you should start the more important question might be should you be teaching if you don’t know this

The stuff about waiting 10 years to push hands is BS, pure and simple. Also no need for the student to have learned the whole form before they begin to push hands either (although I'm aware of a lot of schools who teach it that way).

The student can and should start on the push hands drills (single hand, two hands, horizontal circle, vertical circle) as soon as they have learnt the basic post standing (zhan zhuang) and the first few moves of the form IMHO, with the proviso that complete beginners are probably too stiff in the shoulders to get much benefit out of PH.

Appledog wrote:

windwalker wrote: You really have no basis to understand the differences between them.

If you read my post I said I did. To try and clarify further, i'm not talking about myself.

I already want to learn push hands and I am seeking out people to practice with.

2-28 Peace Park Taipei, Taiwan 和平公園 (he2 ping2 gong1 yuan2)


Might be a good place to check your level and gauge what others are doing even if you could only make it once a month...

windwalker wrote:2-28 Peace Park Taipei, Taiwan 和平公園 (he2 ping2 gong1 yuan2)


Might be a good place to check your level and gauge what others are doing even if you could only make it once a month...

Well if you insist in making this about me Ahh yes, I remember that place, I've written of my past experiences there a few times. In general, I find it hard if not impossible to find people to do fixed form there. As a result I am left with the impression that if I want to get anything useful out of peace park I need to either join one of their clubs so they will teach the fixed patterns first, or buy wholesale into what they are doing and invest in loss for a couple of months or years, and pick it up that way. Both are unrealistic expectations for me. I just live too far away, I have my own material to work on, and I want both an academic and practical experience in push hands.

The last time I went I met a number of very pleasant and helpful people. I found someone to work with for about a half an hour, I think he was only a little better than me, but the lack of form or structure, not having any defined goals to the practice, and in general being thrown into it without explanation, was very confusing. For example I tried to follow his movements but there were no movements to follow. Not sure if that makes sense. Anyways, a place to keep on the radar for sure.