wayne hansen wrote:If you want to use your shoulders as a hidey hole for your head like western boxing go ahead
Just don't tell me it is a part of traditional tai chi
Admit that it is a modern adaption that you use
rojcewiczj wrote: The point is that the shoulders move by the action of the torso not by action of the arms. This is what is called brute force, for the arms to drag the shoulders along, bringing some residual body mass into the strike but actually preventing the whole mass from being delivered.
This is what is called "tossing" in Taiji, that the movements of the arms toss the shoulders along with them, causing the body to wobble.
On a practical level, The process of fully differentiating the arms from the body and then re-forming their relationship is, to my understanding, a very important function of martial art. It can be very difficulty to truly understand the process of moving the body and arm in a coordinated relationship. In order to begin the process of re-forming, we must be clear on what is the body, and what is the arm.... Move your arms with your arms, move your shoulders with your body, move them separately but together through coordination. Connect with your arms, transfer mass with your body. Do one thing and do another in harmony.
rojcewiczj wrote:The point is not that the shoulders never move. The point is that the shoulders move by the action of the torso not by action of the arms. This is what is called brute force, for the arms to drag the shoulders along, bringing some residual body mass into the strike but actually preventing the whole mass from being delivered. This is what is called "tossing" in Taiji, that the movements of the arms toss the shoulders along with them, causing the body to wobble. This is not a small and obvious issue. On a practical level, The process of fully differentiating the arms from the body and then re-forming their relationship is, to my understanding, a very important function of martial art. It can be very difficulty to truly understand the process of moving the body and arm in a coordinated relationship. In order to begin the process of re-forming, we must be clear on what is the body, and what is the arm. The arms is the limp itself which can reach and rotate, comb your hair and brush your teeth. Your shoulders are that part of your torso on which the straps of your backpack hang. Taken in this sense, do you really think you need to move your shoulders to move your arms? or that they have a common role in making actions? The arm and shoulder have completely different jobs to fulfill. Move your arms with your arms, move your shoulders with your body, move them separately but together through coordination. Connect with your arms, transfer mass with your body. Do one thing and do another in harmony. Don't let your shoulders get dragged into what is your arms responsibility.
rojcewiczj wrote:The point isThe arms is the limp itself which can reach and rotate, comb your hair and brush your teeth. Your shoulders are that part of your torso on which the straps of your backpack hang.
Bhassler wrote:BruceP wrote rather extensively about this (and similar) years ago, but swinging a sledge hammer for a chunk of time with bad intentions is a great way to learn how to coordinate shoulders/arms with the body. Just make sure it's done with the idea of doing the most work with the least amount of effort-- don't turn it into a Crossfit workout...
rojcewiczj wrote:Raising your shoulders to hide your head is a function of raising your arms at the the shoulder joint, you are raising your shoulder girdle by raising your arms at the root. The arms and torso are connected by nature, not by will, they are connected at the shoulder in such a way as to allow independence of the arms relative to the body. Not being one thing, but being two, This allows for a relationship to form between the arms and the body. When I punch, I connect to my opponent via the shoulder joint, my arm seeks to become a most perfect connection for my body mass to transfer through. It is the same with grappling. If their is only one, then the concept of connection stops existing and along with it the wealth of traditional martial arts skills. Where is connection lost? because a connection is something which exists between two objects. My arms are connectors, they exist between my body and my opponent, they connect us and allow the forces of our bodies to interact. By controlling the connection I control the interaction. How to control the interaction? Through truly distinguishing my arms from by body. Through truly distinguishing between what connects and what is being connected to.
rojcewiczj wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WjjiJbPOdR8
Of all the interpretations one can form on what is going on in this video. I suggest, quite simply, that master Chen is controlling the interaction through connection via shoulder rotation, while supporting every connection with his body.
rojcewiczj wrote:From my understanding, the principle in practical method is separation of yin and yang...
the method is in with elbow no hand out with hand no elbow.
In with elbow no hand out with hand no elbow sounds like rotation of the shoulder joint to me.
I think your right that I should pursue more time with master Chen, given my interest in his method.
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