No such thing as "Taijiquan"

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: No such thing as "Taijiquan"

Postby charles on Thu Aug 03, 2017 12:21 pm

Bhassler wrote:At some point, you just have to say "they're doing something different" rather than "they're doing what I'm doing, but wrong".



Agreed.
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Re: No such thing as "Taijiquan"

Postby johnwang on Thu Aug 03, 2017 12:40 pm

Bhassler wrote:At some point, you just have to say "they're doing something different" rather than "they're doing what I'm doing, but wrong".

Many years ago an IBM group spent 3 months to look into the ICON desktop graphic user interface (GUI). That IBM group's conclusion was, "The ICON GUI is cute. But it will hurt the IBM serious business image. All customer want are just to see text and business chart on paper."

If Bill Gates didn't "evolve" DOS into Window, today we are still playing with:

cd
copy x y
delete x
notepad x.dat
dir *xyz* /s /p
...
Crow weep in the dark. Tide bellow in the north wind. How lonesome the world.
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Re: No such thing as "Taijiquan"

Postby everything on Thu Aug 03, 2017 1:25 pm

We users are using natural gesture and voice UI, but the Internet still uses UI like:

sudo apt-get install
pip install Flask-Login
git push heroku master

Not sure where this analogy is going. Back to non-existent "taijiquan".
amateur practices til gets right pro til can't get wrong
/ better approx answer to right q than exact answer to wrong q which can be made precise /
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Re: No such thing as "Taijiquan"

Postby cloudz on Fri Aug 04, 2017 3:20 am

Bhassler wrote:
cloudz wrote:
Bhassler wrote:I think there is enough divergence between the various lineages that they can be considered totally separate arts. Compare Chen Zhonghua with Chen Yu - both could be considered grand-students of Chen Fake, but they have totally different foundational methods to their practices. Comparing Chen style to Yang style, etc. the differences can be even bigger. One could argue common origins and some similarities, but the same is true for Wing Chun, White Crane, and Karate, yet no one considers those all to be the same art.

Just food for thought, as I didn't want to derail another thread.



This is one of those similarities vs. differences double sided measuring sticks or semantic merry go rounds. Pick your thrill.
Are they more similar or more different, how much, which should we push to the fore?
Sometimes we call arts styles and styles arts; shoot to kill, the bastards that do such things to us!!


Not sure why you're so fired up about this-- it's an opinion, not moral theology. I think that arguing nuances of definition about peng or ji, or body mechanics, or whatever, is pointless if one person is doing Beijing Chen style and the other person is doing Ching Man Cheng Yang style. They're just totally different arts, with different training methods and goals. The same can be said of the whole "4oz" idea-- what that means and how it's applied is vastly different among schools. At some point, you just have to say "they're doing something different" rather than "they're doing what I'm doing, but wrong".

If you (general you) really think there is something that uniquely defines all of taijiquan, then articulate it. What is present in all styles of taiji that is also absent from all other, non-taiji martial arts? I don't think you'll find anything.


yes I definitely do.

I'll give you an example: Chen Pan Ling.

he learnt from very good masters of Chen, Yang and Wu. From this he synthesised his own tai chi style and system. This shows be that there is an essence to tai chi for sure. I know what that is, because i practice tai chi and know what it needs to be. other bits are bells and whistles and everyone has a right to change up things that are ok to change up. Doing tai chi differently is ok up to a point, but it might just depend how far you go off the reservation.

I haven't seen something yet that i thought that's not tai chi, not from either guy you mention. So you haven't actually made a good case or example for me to agree with anyway.

Also if you decide someone has strayed too far, then fine. That still doesn't mean there are not still loads of people who are in line with 'Orthodox tai chi'. You don't have to re invent tai chi to make it work or whatever so whatever these guys are doing to move so far away, it's pretty fucking irrelivent to me anyway. I know what tai chi is, what it is to me, and what it is for many others.

If you think you're going to tell me it doesn't exist, then you're barking very far up the wrong tree my friend.
I'm riled up because there's too much of this kind of confusion and bullshit around a martial art I have truly come to feel is being failed by some of its own. They stay too much on the surface whereas to really get into it it has to be full immersion and unrelenting passion. When you get to the heart of it it's one things that can be articulated and expressed in different ways. Things have to grow and change, but we have good examples to fall back on and remind as the important essence and essentials.

Once you are in that essence body and mind, you can have tai chi chuan too. Learn from a few styles and teachers and the differences become your knowledge of the essence and heart of it.
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George

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Re: No such thing as "Taijiquan"

Postby cloudz on Fri Aug 04, 2017 3:22 am

everything wrote:We users are using natural gesture and voice UI, but the Internet still uses UI like:

sudo apt-get install
pip install Flask-Login
git push heroku master

Not sure where this analogy is going. Back to non-existent "taijiquan".



you play soccer don't you; I play TCC.

Now imagine someone came to you and said soccer doesn't exist.
It's crazy talk for sure.

When we are told who's doesn't exist and who's does, that will be the kicker won't it.
Last edited by cloudz on Fri Aug 04, 2017 3:23 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: No such thing as "Taijiquan"

Postby cloudz on Fri Aug 04, 2017 3:25 am

charles wrote:
Bhassler wrote:At some point, you just have to say "they're doing something different" rather than "they're doing what I'm doing, but wrong".



Agreed.



yea doing something different, agreed. stylistically.

You have been quite stri=ongly suggesting over quite some time that it's the sam thing. The Chen style is based on circles, on silk reeling. They might be organized different etc. but essentially it's the same art.

You had a Yang style teacher. Again saying several times on RSF that Yang and Chen was essentially the same thing based on your exeperience.
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Re: No such thing as "Taijiquan"

Postby cloudz on Fri Aug 04, 2017 3:41 am

Some contents. no particular order. some are the essence, some are not. some grow for the necessity to make that essence usable.

Wuji
postures (32/37), static
slow movement form(s) of said postures
fast form(s)
push hands
circularity
open close
yin yang
mindfullness
stick
adhere
follow
lead
understanding energy
form to know yourself
push hands to know others
taiji techniques
strikes
kicks
chinna
shuai
THE BAMEN
THE FIVE STEPS
leading to emptiness
yielding and neutralizing
seizing
fajin
Chansi jin
NEI JIN
qigong
neigong and or qigong
free pushing
sparring
counter attacking strategy, "he moves I arrive first"
rotation; turn like a wheel, waist is like an axle etc. (or along those lines)
balancing forces; "Where there is up there is down"
listening / sensitivity

Sure I get riled up, that lot is just off the top of my head. plus some edits/additions..

Because you don't hear bagua guys or boxers or CLF guys, BJJ etc saying this nonsense do you. Why is it always tai chi guys with these hang ups?
Who seem to get lost in it all and can't see the woods for the trees.

There's too much dogma in TCMA and with perhaps the TCC guys especially. So you do it like that and I don't, what's the big fucking deal?
Are we still both doing tai chi ?

Do you reckon if the two guys you mentioned got in a room and went through their arts with eachother, they could come out of it understanding where they diverge and where they are still both doing the essence of the art they share - or one their ancestors once shared. You tell me they can't find it. You base that on what. You didn't even go into any detail about those differences and how they are fundamental and break the bonds of what makes TCC TCC.
Last edited by cloudz on Fri Aug 04, 2017 7:24 am, edited 7 times in total.
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George

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Re: No such thing as "Taijiquan"

Postby Trick on Fri Aug 04, 2017 6:30 am

cloudz wrote:
everything wrote:We users are using natural gesture and voice UI, but the Internet still uses UI like:

sudo apt-get install
pip install Flask-Login
git push heroku master

Not sure where this analogy is going. Back to non-existent "taijiquan".



you play soccer don't you; I play TCC.

Now imagine someone came to you and said soccer doesn't exist.
It's crazy talk for sure.

When we are told who's doesn't exist and who's does, that will be the kicker won't it.
The real name is 'Football' 8-)
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Re: No such thing as "Taijiquan"

Postby LaoDan on Fri Aug 04, 2017 6:39 am

An Introduction to Takuan’s Writings on Zen and Swordsmanship (p21; p22 of the PDF) by Haskel states:
http://www.uhpress.hawaii.edu/books/haskelswordintro.pdf

“In the largely peaceful conditions that accompanied consolidation of Tokugawa authority, the warrior class had little opportunity to employ its skills in actual warfare. With pitched battles between contending armies a thing of the past, swordsmanship became an end in itself, transformed, so the oft-heard argument goes, from a practical technique (jutsu orgei) for the battlefield to a “Way” (dō or michi), a path to perfection that was at once an art, a spiritual discipline, and even a form of moral cultivation.”


I think that a similar change happened with Chinese arts, especially on the emphasis on revitalizing the people (the sick/weak of Asia...) and society (bullied by Western powers as well as the Japanese...) that is often found in the TJQ manuals of the Republican Period.

The progression to an emphasis on spirituality, cultivation, and other “non-practical” aspects of the art should not be unexpected for martial arts during extended periods in relatively peaceful societies. I suspect that this is what fuels some of the “No such thing as ‘Taijiquan’” discussion. Those that value the “practical” aspects of TJQ will not like those who change the emphasis to a “Way”.
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Re: No such thing as "Taijiquan"

Postby windwalker on Fri Aug 04, 2017 7:21 am

LaoDan wrote:I think that a similar change happened with Chinese arts, especially on the emphasis on revitalizing the people (the sick/weak of Asia...) and society (bullied by Western powers as well as the Japanese...) that is often found in the TJQ manuals of the Republican Period.

The progression to an emphasis on spirituality, cultivation, and other “non-practical” aspects of the art should not be unexpected for martial arts during extended periods in relatively peaceful societies. I suspect that this is what fuels some of the “No such thing as ‘Taijiquan’” discussion. Those that value the “practical” aspects of TJQ will not like those who change the emphasis to a “Way”.


I agree in part another thread that addressed some of this.
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=26198

There was a concerted effort made to change the focus.

Unlike most other arts, were the focus is on the "individual" allowing the "individual" to compete win or lose and be judged by that,
The focus tends to be on the style itself judged by whether an individual wins or loses who says they have the "real"
with the conversations centered around whether it was the art the enabled the "fighter" to win or lose, to even if it was being used or not.

With taiji, outside of PH there are no clear public venues by which it can be in seen use with only anecdotal accounts of how its used or was used.
Even accounts of what the founder did and his sons exploits are not very clear, with the exception that all gained fame through the public matches of the day.

The focus IMO is based on passing down and maintaining the traditions. Not on changing and adapting them to modern times...
Historically this was not the case, but seems to be what happens to most styles at certain point in their development.

Ban Hou would practice hard, undeterred by winter's cold or summer's heat. Yang Ban Hou had a hard and fierce disposition. He was skilled at sparring, and especially adept in using the staff (made of bai la wood, over three meters long, and used in the same way as the spear).

Yang Jian, called Jian Hou, was nicknamed Jian Hu and called "3rd Son" until his later years when he was referred to as just "old man". Born in 1842, he started studying Tai Chi Chuan with his father at a young age. Under the strict requirements of his father he would practice hard all day. Frequently feeling that he could not endure it any longer, he tried several times to run away. It was clear that working hard daily at practicing gongfu under his father's watchful eye caused his skill to greatly improve.

Yang Zhao Xiong, his imposing manner was quite threatening. Shao Hou taught students to strike quickly after coming into contact with the opponent, wearing expressions from the full spectrum of emotions when he taught them"
http://www.yangfamilytaichi.com/yang/hi ... g-shao-hou
http://legacy.ymaa.com/articles/history ... -taijiquan


In popularizing their art, they did not invent a special venue PH they entered in the venues of the day.

The art and other CMA arts went underground back to more utilitarian uses.
As such things that worked were and still are, are kept
secret understandably when a life depends on it.


Master Ng's death was an effort by the Chinese mafia to stop an uprising of their soldiers and gave the excuse that Master Ng could not control his students, i.e., the trained gang soldiers. Originally the soldiers were given an assignment but were unable to complete it but still demanded payment of $2,000 from the mafia for an unsuccessful job performed. If the Chinese mafia did not pay, the soldiers threaten to expose their gambling houses and prostitution houses.

As a result of the threat, the mafia hired a 15 year old kid and was assigned to shoot Master Ng who took four slugs (22-cal.), one in each knee and two in the chest. This sent a loud message to the soldiers-back off or your going to be next.

http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/sho ... nd-Kung-Fu


With the advent of guns until this day, its understood or should be that things have changed
when decades of training can be wiped out by some kid with a gun.
I would imagine the use of gun fu is included with training along more traditional lines.
Last edited by windwalker on Fri Aug 04, 2017 7:44 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: No such thing as "Taijiquan"

Postby cloudz on Fri Aug 04, 2017 7:29 am

And often what are these epic differences..
one guy wiggles his jiggle like that, the other guys woggles his jin that other way.
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Re: No such thing as "Taijiquan"

Postby charles on Fri Aug 04, 2017 7:37 am

cloudz wrote:
charles wrote:
Bhassler wrote:At some point, you just have to say "they're doing something different" rather than "they're doing what I'm doing, but wrong".



Agreed.



yea doing something different, agreed. stylistically.

You have been quite stri=ongly suggesting over quite some time that it's the sam thing. The Chen style is based on circles, on silk reeling. They might be organized different etc. but essentially it's the same art.

You had a Yang style teacher. Again saying several times on RSF that Yang and Chen was essentially the same thing based on your exeperience.


Context is important.

There are people who are practicing what they call "Taijiquan" that are stylistic variations of the same thing. There are also people who practice what they call "Taijiquan" who are practicing something that is very different, though it might have similar choreography.

It appears there are several ways of interpreting that, as follows:

1. Deny that they are doing different things but calling it the same thing, thereby insisting there is really only one thing,
2. Accept that what they are doing is called the same thing, but is different,
3. Insist that since it is different, and of the same name, they are doing it wrong.

I find 2., above, works best for me. It reduces arguing and allows everyone to do whatever they want and call it whatever they want.

Now imagine someone came to you and said soccer doesn't exist. It's crazy talk for sure.


Now imagine someone came to you and said everything played with a round ball is soccer. It's crazy talk for sure. ;)

Now imagine someone came to you and said every slow-moving activity that's got "qi" under the hood is Taijiquan. It's crazy talk. For sure. ;D
Last edited by charles on Fri Aug 04, 2017 7:42 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: No such thing as "Taijiquan"

Postby LaoDan on Fri Aug 04, 2017 9:21 am

I rent studio space in a facility started by Nia dancers, and was asked about conducting a workshop (“playshop”) on T’ai Chi for Nia students since TJQ is supposedly incorporated into Nia (Note: Nia originally stood for Non-Impact Aerobics). They call the TJQ component of their system the “slow dance” and, although they understand some of the underlying benefits of doing movements slowly, they do not do anything that I can recognize as coming from TJQ principles.

I wrote the following as part of my response after seeing a video that she sent to me that supposedly incorporated “playing with Tai Chi energy”:
“It is like someone understands that bathwater is good for cleaning a baby, and that having a clean baby is good, but then forgetting to bath the baby and playing with the bathwater instead! Slowness is a tool to aid in learning the principles, slowness is NOT the principle. DON’T throw out the principles and only keep the slowness!”

I told her that it may be better if they focused on a principle, like when one part moves all parts move; but that they could watch each other for that, and would not need my instruction for practicing that principle.

It does bother me that the numerous Nia dancers that practice their system think that they know something about TJQ!

The following is the Nia video that I was sent as an example of what they do to incorporate “Tai Chi” into their Nia system.

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Re: No such thing as "Taijiquan"

Postby windwalker on Fri Aug 04, 2017 10:10 am

If something was called Chen style or cotton fist before being noted or called taiji was it taiji before it was called taiji or after.

One might wonder what were the naming conventions used by historical Chinese regarding martial arts
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Re: No such thing as "Taijiquan"

Postby charles on Fri Aug 04, 2017 10:44 am

windwalker wrote:If something was called Chen style or cotton fist before being noted or called taiji was it taiji before it was called taiji or after.


Chen Fake was quoted as saying his family's art was historically called "Chen Family Boxing".
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