99% of tai chi is fake

[windwalker]

Without commening on your skills or the "purity" (if that even means anything) of your tai chi, simply because you cannot do this, because you do not have this kind of tradition. Whatever you know, or have learned, you seem to have said many times that basically no one else (or so very few) are working on what you are working on. Basically what you are telling me is that compared to what you do it is not about the first 99% of fake tai chi, or the second 99% that don't know what real tai chi is, it's that even in the top 1% of 1% most people don't work on what you are working on. At that point I think it becomes a liabilty. If your teacher died, heaven forbid, or you moved away, how would you seriously continue your practice? How would you ever be able to find another group that does what you do?

That's what I mean when I say I am very curious as to why you feel so sure about your practice, your methods. I would classify you as being in the top 1%, sure, but after that it's no longer enough to have some kind of skill. You need more than that. There are plenty of people who have worked very hard all their life and have not gotten anywhere 'real' simply because they went off in a different direction and for whatever reason they simply never bothered to ask a teacher, or had the wrong teacher, or for some reason they were just not taught, etc...

1. The post was not about fake taiji or me, it was about historical reasons that some of the changes in view points might have come about,
that people comment on others practicing what they feel is not accordance with what they practice.

I thought some might find the history presented interesting.

2. There are many that work with the same type of skill sets that interest me, it is true that many here seem not to.
My point in posting at times was to give a first hand accounting of what some might see or question.
I no longer do this as much feeling it's kind of a waste of time.

3. at some point ones practice should become self teaching, once one reaches this point a teacher is only needed to confirm if needed, not to teach.

4. I don't find groups that do what I do,
I make groups for those interested in what I do...

5. with out saying much about myself, I've worked with many long term taiji players helping them to understand taiji questions they may have in their practice. Most come away with a new understanding or viewpoint that they have not thought of or where not exposed to.
I make no claim as to skill level.

[Appledog]

Hello! Originally I wanted to have a "cool post count" of 108, or something like that (something associated with Tai Chi) but that does not seem possible here. Therefore I am editing this post to point out that users here cannot delete their own posts. I do not understand why users have the ability to edit their posts but not to delete their posts.

[Giles]

@ giles,

Dispite the title,

the point of the post was that historically there are many factors the might influence ones views of what they practice today that they may not
be aware of.

Not whether it worked or who's art is real or not.
Something that one has to answer for themselves.

I was just having a little fun, don't mean to derail...

Sure, the issue itself and the linked article are interesting. Did people like Sun Lutang do the martial arts a disservice or a favour by partially shifting emphasis? Or both?
From the perspective of people who have gone really deep into traditional training and lineages, and possibly have the fighting experience to go with it, I'm probably 50% 'fake' in my tai chi. Or at least with big gaps in the complete traditional package. But for me, all I do has value and doesn't involve any posing or deceit, so I'm good with that. I tell people that 'proper' tai chi is a martial art but that the health benefits, for body and mind, are at least as important as physical self-defence.
Actually, for the last few months I've been recovering from a seriously herniated lumbar disc which brought all kinds of pain and problems. I've had various kinds of physiotherapy and 'alternative' treatments, all of which have been very useful in their own way, but the biggest, measurable recovery resource for me has been doing lots of wuji standing, basic exercises similar (but not identical) to Huang's 5 loosening exercises and lots of slow and mindful form. So I don't care whether 'authentic' or not right now - it's helping to save me from premature old-man status and bringing me back my previous movement range and enjoyment.

[Niall Keane]

This is simple...

Tai Chi Chuan is a martial art.

Martial Arts are about fighting.

If you (or at least others) cannot fight WELL with what you and they have learned from your martial art's drills and training regimes, then that martial art is, if not outright fake, a watered down boxercise system.

Start there and 99% are removed.

With whats left we can ask whether what they do, and how they train relates to the classics? (when I say "we" , I mean those who can fight, as otherwise Dunning-Kruger applies.

a cognitive bias wherein persons of low ability suffer from illusory superiority, mistakenly assessing their cognitive ability as greater than it is. The cognitive bias of illusory superiority derives from the metacognitive inability of low-ability persons to recognize their own ineptitude. Without the self-awareness of metacognition, low-ability people cannot objectively evaluate their actual competence or incompetence.

And that's really what's been going on for decades... WooWoo arrived in the West, TuFu Chuan, as I've called it before Tai Chi Boxercise. People have convinced themselves that they can be authorities on martial arts without having the ability to fight (bar in their imagination). As such they are prone to error, from valuing areas of practice based on their "intellectual" challenge (which could be the translation of esoteric aspects of the art) above the more fundamental functional basics which ironically help reveal the more subtle aspects . Without the foundation of understanding the whole structure collapses.
But not before these lads made themselves "authorities" with self-published books and magazines, newly created "qualifications" and regulatory bodies set up by these same people. A classic "tyranny of the weak".

So we must abandon any peer-review first and recognise the likely contamination within such, and start from the basics...

Tai Chi Chuan (yin-yang boxing) not yin-yang performance art, not yin-yang mediation...

This approach is not without precedent. Take Western Boxing, there are millions of clubs out there. They will be evaluated first on the performance of their members in open competition and nothing else offers a clear objective assessment. If they have it all wrong they will fail, and such hopeless practitioners should not and are not invited to say be commentators on TV etc.
Society by in large recognises that there is value in an "expert eye"... and this is sought in previously successful fighters or coaches.

Only in the world of Nei Jia Chuan is weight given to the inexperienced, why?

Because the vast majority are inexperienced and as per Dunning-Kruger, they are not aware of how much that handicaps their ability to accurately access expertise. They have no clue of what to look for.. and worse go off down rabbit holes of intellectual-construct / fantasy, convinced of their own subjective musings!

Am I wrong?

[windwalker]

"am I wrong"

depends

But not before these lads made themselves "authorities" with self-published books and magazines, newly created "qualifications" and regulatory bodies set up by these same people. A classic "tyranny of the weak".

These lads, as you say include some of the major names known in taiji, at a time when the art was being developed.

A different model of martial arts instruction can be seen after Sun arrives in Baoding. Here he is introduced to his twin mentors, Zhang and Li Kui Yuan. Li was a student of Xingyi and became Sun Lutang’s second hand combat teacher. This is interesting as it appears that Li did not teach a large number of people. Why? Because he had a more effective means of monetizing his skill. He was the owner of a successful armed escort service.

They had to find a way that would attract more students, making a living .

The life experience of individuals like Sun Lutang, T. T. Liang or Ip Man were shaped by tremendously tragic events and vast military conflicts. Having seen quite a bit of real conflict in their lives I think that these individuals knew exactly what the martial arts were, and none of them were too attached to traditional institutions. Rather their loyalty lay with the goals that those institutions were meant to accomplish. When times changed they simply created new teaching structures.

They adopted to changes as needed understanding that not everyone would see a need to learn their craft with the advent of firearms.

The Boxer Uprising was an embarrassment to the nation and it led to renewed calls for modernization. This happened in the military realm in 1905 when the Qing abolished the Military Service Exam. Training students to take that exam had been one of the main professional callings of martial arts teachers throughout China. Many people trained in the martial arts explicitly because they wanted a career in the military. That career path was, with some exceptions, closed to martial artists after 1905.

In short, the Chinese martial arts took two critical hits in a five year period. Lots of hand combat teachers found themselves unemployed at exactly the same time that their skills are being publicly ridiculed and blamed for the weak state of the nation.

Many martial arts reformers, including the Jingwu Association, were publicly arguing that both of these problems could be addressed by introducing some sort of modernized martial arts curriculum into primary and secondary school education. The martial arts should be a part of education reform because they would help to literally strengthen the nation, both in physical and spiritual terms. Occasionally reformers pointed to the success of “Budo” in Japan to illustrate what might be possible in China.

Of course this could not be the old style hand combat of the Qing dynasty, taught in narrow secretive networks. The new age demanded a reformed and open art that could be shared with the entire nation. To be taught in large classes styles needed to focus on forms rather than personalized instruction and combat applications did need to be a major focus of the early phases of training.

The focus changed with the times,

The traditional Chinese martial arts may have started out as a method for fighting, but in the post-WWII period they quickly became a means of identity formation. It is not that the need for self-defense has ever really gone away, but other less tangible concerns have risen to the fore.

For displaced refugees in Taiwan and Hong Kong following the 1949 takeover, questions about what it meant to be Chinese while living in exile became critical. The Cultural Revolution and its aftermath left a generation of young people in mainland China struggling to find their way in the world. Likewise the martial arts in the west are often tied to a desire to self-create a new identity.

I posted the link after reading it because it helped clear up some questions I had, felt it might help others to answer theirs.

It may surprise readers that Sun is not always regarded as a great boxer in China, particularly among competing Taiji, Xingyi or Bagua lineages. His modification and simplifications of the forms are not always appreciated. The emphasis on health and basic fitness, rather than actual fighting and self-defense applications, in his lineage is often questioned.

The link answers questions and might raise questions.
The intent of the post was to examine why many seem to feel what they do is the correct way over others
and understand where this might come from. Much respect for the ancestors and culture that brought the arts that many study
today.

I do agree that the only real test, as it was noted with the founders of the arts is through combative exploits,
Of course as noted in the article it depends on ones focus.

If one understands their own focus, it might allow them to see others as practicing something
that is not used nor designed to achieve the same ends.

Different focus.

[windwalker]

I was just having a little fun, don't mean to derail...

Sure, the issue itself and the linked article are interesting. Did people like Sun Lutang do the martial arts a disservice or a favour by partially shifting emphasis? Or both?

It's ok, what thread on RSF doesn't get derailed? thought it was the point of posting

As to your question I feel its a personal view point as to the answer...I have mine, others have theirs.
I only mention that it might be a mistake for some feeling that others have no understanding of fighting or have not fought
and in doing so found a way that seems to answer questions that they may have had along the way.

Often the case with many who study what are called IMA.

From the perspective of people who have gone really deep into traditional training and lineages, and possibly have the fighting experience to go with it, I'm probably 50% 'fake' in my tai chi. Or at least with big gaps in the complete traditional package. But for me, all I do has value and doesn't involve any posing or deceit, so I'm good with that. I tell people that 'proper' tai chi is a martial art but that the health benefits, for body and mind, are at least as important as physical self-defence.

noted : it might be more fair to say depending on focus. The focus for example of Chen, Yang, or Wu, family styles by the families might just be to preserve their art as taught in a certain point in time not caring about establishing it in the modern events of todays time. What is traditional depends on linage, style, and teacher. I don't think what most people do is fake, if they are very clear about their practice.

If they are unaware of the the focus of their practice, this might be a problem depending on the context its supposed to work in or on.

Actually, for the last few months I've been recovering from a seriously herniated lumbar disc which brought all kinds of pain and problems. I've had various kinds of physiotherapy and 'alternative' treatments, all of which have been very useful in their own way, but the biggest, measurable recovery resource for me has been doing lots of wuji standing, basic exercises similar (but not identical) to Huang's 5 loosening exercises and lots of slow and mindful form. So I don't care whether 'authentic' or not right now - it's helping to save me from premature old-man status and bringing me back my previous movement range and enjoyment.

wow sounds bad, good that you've found something that seems to be working for you,
best of luck with your recovery.

[Trick]

This is simple...

Tai Chi Chuan is a martial art.

Martial Arts are about fighting.

If you (or at least others) cannot fight WELL with what you and they have learned from your martial art's drills and training regimes, then that martial art is, if not outright fake, a watered down boxercise system.

Start there and 99% are removed.

With whats left we can ask whether what they do, and how they train relates to the classics? (when I say "we" , I mean those who can fight, as otherwise Dunning-Kruger applies.

a cognitive bias wherein persons of low ability suffer from illusory superiority, mistakenly assessing their cognitive ability as greater than it is. The cognitive bias of illusory superiority derives from the metacognitive inability of low-ability persons to recognize their own ineptitude. Without the self-awareness of metacognition, low-ability people cannot objectively evaluate their actual competence or incompetence.

And that's really what's been going on for decades... WooWoo arrived in the West, TuFu Chuan, as I've called it before Tai Chi Boxercise. People have convinced themselves that they can be authorities on martial arts without having the ability to fight (bar in their imagination). As such they are prone to error, from valuing areas of practice based on their "intellectual" challenge (which could be the translation of esoteric aspects of the art) above the more fundamental functional basics which ironically help reveal the more subtle aspects . Without the foundation of understanding the whole structure collapses.
But not before these lads made themselves "authorities" with self-published books and magazines, newly created "qualifications" and regulatory bodies set up by these same people. A classic "tyranny of the weak".

So we must abandon any peer-review first and recognise the likely contamination within such, and start from the basics...

Tai Chi Chuan (yin-yang boxing) not yin-yang performance art, not yin-yang mediation...

This approach is not without precedent. Take Western Boxing, there are millions of clubs out there. They will be evaluated first on the performance of their members in open competition and nothing else offers a clear objective assessment. If they have it all wrong they will fail, and such hopeless practitioners should not and are not invited to say be commentators on TV etc.
Society by in large recognises that there is value in an "expert eye"... and this is sought in previously successful fighters or coaches.

Only in the world of Nei Jia Chuan is weight given to the inexperienced, why?

Because the vast majority are inexperienced and as per Dunning-Kruger, they are not aware of how much that handicaps their ability to accurately access expertise. They have no clue of what to look for.. and worse go off down rabbit holes of intellectual-construct / fantasy, convinced of their own subjective musings!

Am I wrong?

Ouch, so much anger, all yang, no yin/yang at all. I'd say Taiji for all fake or not Anyway when did the fake begin ? take Yang Chengfu and his Taiji friends, surely back in their time taijiquan was all about fighting? what was their fight record, who did they fight, did they actually fight ? They must have heard of Olympic wrestling and western boxing, back then in Shanghai there where probably capable pugilists of the western boxing tradition both Chinese and non Chinese, did Taiji guys step up to try their fighting skill against these foreign fighting arts ? Maybe there are solid records of such fights taking place, it would be fun to read about, but otherwise it wouldn't matter much for me if the masters of the past or present are fake or not I have my TJ(Q) and I enjoy it mostly as an boxercise it's enough for me.

[Trick]

"am I wrong"

depends

But not before these lads made themselves "authorities" with self-published books and magazines, newly created "qualifications" and regulatory bodies set up by these same people. A classic "tyranny of the weak".

These lads, as you say include some of the major names known in taiji, at a time when the art was being developed.

A different model of martial arts instruction can be seen after Sun arrives in Baoding. Here he is introduced to his twin mentors, Zhang and Li Kui Yuan. Li was a student of Xingyi and became Sun Lutang’s second hand combat teacher. This is interesting as it appears that Li did not teach a large number of people. Why? Because he had a more effective means of monetizing his skill. He was the owner of a successful armed escort service.

They had to find a way that would attract more students, making a living .

The life experience of individuals like Sun Lutang, T. T. Liang or Ip Man were shaped by tremendously tragic events and vast military conflicts. Having seen quite a bit of real conflict in their lives I think that these individuals knew exactly what the martial arts were, and none of them were too attached to traditional institutions. Rather their loyalty lay with the goals that those institutions were meant to accomplish. When times changed they simply created new teaching structures.

They adopted to changes as needed understanding that not everyone would see a need to learn their craft with the advent of firearms.

The Boxer Uprising was an embarrassment to the nation and it led to renewed calls for modernization. This happened in the military realm in 1905 when the Qing abolished the Military Service Exam. Training students to take that exam had been one of the main professional callings of martial arts teachers throughout China. Many people trained in the martial arts explicitly because they wanted a career in the military. That career path was, with some exceptions, closed to martial artists after 1905.

In short, the Chinese martial arts took two critical hits in a five year period. Lots of hand combat teachers found themselves unemployed at exactly the same time that their skills are being publicly ridiculed and blamed for the weak state of the nation.

Many martial arts reformers, including the Jingwu Association, were publicly arguing that both of these problems could be addressed by introducing some sort of modernized martial arts curriculum into primary and secondary school education. The martial arts should be a part of education reform because they would help to literally strengthen the nation, both in physical and spiritual terms. Occasionally reformers pointed to the success of “Budo” in Japan to illustrate what might be possible in China.

Of course this could not be the old style hand combat of the Qing dynasty, taught in narrow secretive networks. The new age demanded a reformed and open art that could be shared with the entire nation. To be taught in large classes styles needed to focus on forms rather than personalized instruction and combat applications did need to be a major focus of the early phases of training.

The focus changed with the times,

The traditional Chinese martial arts may have started out as a method for fighting, but in the post-WWII period they quickly became a means of identity formation. It is not that the need for self-defense has ever really gone away, but other less tangible concerns have risen to the fore.

For displaced refugees in Taiwan and Hong Kong following the 1949 takeover, questions about what it meant to be Chinese while living in exile became critical. The Cultural Revolution and its aftermath left a generation of young people in mainland China struggling to find their way in the world. Likewise the martial arts in the west are often tied to a desire to self-create a new identity.

I posted the link after reading it because it helped clear up some questions I had, felt it might help others to answer theirs.

It may surprise readers that Sun is not always regarded as a great boxer in China, particularly among competing Taiji, Xingyi or Bagua lineages. His modification and simplifications of the forms are not always appreciated. The emphasis on health and basic fitness, rather than actual fighting and self-defense applications, in his lineage is often questioned.

The link answers questions and might raise questions.
The intent of the post was to examine why many seem to feel what they do is the correct way over others
and understand where this might come from. Much respect for the ancestors and culture that brought the arts that many study
today.

I do agree that the only real test, as it was noted with the founders of the arts is through combative exploits,
Of course as noted in the article it depends on ones focus.

If one understands their own focus, it might allow them to see others as practicing something
that is not used nor designed to achieve the same ends.

Different focus.

Thanks for this post, informative

[Trick]

"am I wrong"

depends

But not before these lads made themselves "authorities" with self-published books and magazines, newly created "qualifications" and regulatory bodies set up by these same people. A classic "tyranny of the weak".

These lads, as you say include some of the major names known in taiji, at a time when the art was being developed.

A different model of martial arts instruction can be seen after Sun arrives in Baoding. Here he is introduced to his twin mentors, Zhang and Li Kui Yuan. Li was a student of Xingyi and became Sun Lutang’s second hand combat teacher. This is interesting as it appears that Li did not teach a large number of people. Why? Because he had a more effective means of monetizing his skill. He was the owner of a successful armed escort service.

They had to find a way that would attract more students, making a living .

The life experience of individuals like Sun Lutang, T. T. Liang or Ip Man were shaped by tremendously tragic events and vast military conflicts. Having seen quite a bit of real conflict in their lives I think that these individuals knew exactly what the martial arts were, and none of them were too attached to traditional institutions. Rather their loyalty lay with the goals that those institutions were meant to accomplish. When times changed they simply created new teaching structures.

They adopted to changes as needed understanding that not everyone would see a need to learn their craft with the advent of firearms.

The Boxer Uprising was an embarrassment to the nation and it led to renewed calls for modernization. This happened in the military realm in 1905 when the Qing abolished the Military Service Exam. Training students to take that exam had been one of the main professional callings of martial arts teachers throughout China. Many people trained in the martial arts explicitly because they wanted a career in the military. That career path was, with some exceptions, closed to martial artists after 1905.

In short, the Chinese martial arts took two critical hits in a five year period. Lots of hand combat teachers found themselves unemployed at exactly the same time that their skills are being publicly ridiculed and blamed for the weak state of the nation.

Many martial arts reformers, including the Jingwu Association, were publicly arguing that both of these problems could be addressed by introducing some sort of modernized martial arts curriculum into primary and secondary school education. The martial arts should be a part of education reform because they would help to literally strengthen the nation, both in physical and spiritual terms. Occasionally reformers pointed to the success of “Budo” in Japan to illustrate what might be possible in China.

Of course this could not be the old style hand combat of the Qing dynasty, taught in narrow secretive networks. The new age demanded a reformed and open art that could be shared with the entire nation. To be taught in large classes styles needed to focus on forms rather than personalized instruction and combat applications did need to be a major focus of the early phases of training.

The focus changed with the times,

The traditional Chinese martial arts may have started out as a method for fighting, but in the post-WWII period they quickly became a means of identity formation. It is not that the need for self-defense has ever really gone away, but other less tangible concerns have risen to the fore.

For displaced refugees in Taiwan and Hong Kong following the 1949 takeover, questions about what it meant to be Chinese while living in exile became critical. The Cultural Revolution and its aftermath left a generation of young people in mainland China struggling to find their way in the world. Likewise the martial arts in the west are often tied to a desire to self-create a new identity.

I posted the link after reading it because it helped clear up some questions I had, felt it might help others to answer theirs.

It may surprise readers that Sun is not always regarded as a great boxer in China, particularly among competing Taiji, Xingyi or Bagua lineages. His modification and simplifications of the forms are not always appreciated. The emphasis on health and basic fitness, rather than actual fighting and self-defense applications, in his lineage is often questioned.

The link answers questions and might raise questions.
The intent of the post was to examine why many seem to feel what they do is the correct way over others
and understand where this might come from. Much respect for the ancestors and culture that brought the arts that many study
today.

I do agree that the only real test, as it was noted with the founders of the arts is through combative exploits,
Of course as noted in the article it depends on ones focus.

If one understands their own focus, it might allow them to see others as practicing something
that is not used nor designed to achieve the same ends.

Different focus.

Informative, thanks

[Steve James]

Tcc is 100% real . 99% of its practitioners might not be able to use it to compete with other martial artists. 50% of them might only use it for exercise. It's like saying that hammers are 99% fake. Not true; there are just poor hammer users.

[everything]

Very true.

Back on the historical topic, Sun and that generation wanted to help the general population achieve health (including strength, fitness, etc.) so that China would not be "weak". Fast forward 100 years and things are quite different indeed. But it's not about brawn, it's about a brain competition and industrial policy, really. China is pulling ahead of the USA in AI, which seems a bit surprising given Silicon Valley, Amazon, etc. (then again China just blocks foreign Internet powers and fosters its own, with a larger consumer base and no EU-style privacy concerns). These two "superpowers" will disproportionately control the digital age, it seems, especially as "robots" take over. What will happen to everyone else?

[Taijikid]

Of course, 99% of tai chi is fake!

Just look at how many styles of Tai Chi, Chen, Yang, Wu, etc. Who has the real one?

[johnwang]

Tai Chi Chuan is a martial art.

Martial Arts are about fighting.

If you (or at least others) cannot fight WELL with what you and they have learned from your martial art's drills and training regimes, then that martial art is, if not outright fake, a watered down boxercise system.

I like this logic. If you can knock/take your opponent down 7 times in a role, you should belong to that 1%.

As for that 1%, IMO, some of them have focused on the wrong training. Many Taiji guys like to talk about "strong rooting - not to be taken down". If you

- play 100% defense,
- stay on both feet,
- not trying to commit on anything,
- use vibration force to cancel out your opponent's attack during the initial stage,
- neither resist nor yield but "cut angle",

it will be very difficult for your opponent to take you down. But this is just the average skill. When you can take your opponent down 7 times in a role, that will be considered as true top 1% Taiji skill.

[willie]

I don't really think that 99% is totally fake, more like 5% or less.
What I do believe is that teachers have injected their own views and prejudices. totally destroying the art.
A true taiji master should be almost unbeatable by anyone of any style. That's how advanced it really is. Unfortunately it's
nearly impossible to get all the right information and even with all the right info, it's still nearly impossible to master.
Next problem is, how to know if you have found the right transmission and of-coarse the cost.
In-short there are other arts that have a very high level of success that don't take anywhere close to the amount of time.
So if all you want is to fight, it would be much wiser to chose a different art.

[Bao]

I don't really think that 99% is totally fake, more like 5% or less.

I have no idea about percentage or if "fake" is a correct term. Some people believe that we should not practice it as a martial art and only use it to seek health. What they do should not be called fake, because what they do is whta they believe in and they think is true.

Maybe 95% or 99% percent of Tai Chi is not really practiced with it's full potential as a martial art, and/ or lack the foundation necessary to form an effective combat art. And all of those probably all watered down one way or another. But I would still not go so far to call everything "fake".