the rum soaked fist: internal martial arts forum

everything wrote:I'd be more interested in the anecdotal data of any posters here with regard to qigong + resistance training and not theory on one vs. the other. I haven't noticed a detrimental effect in my qigong (health-oriented mostly; I can't send anyone flying etc. etc. though) from a modest level of resistance training and certainly zero reduction of coordination of difficult moves (technically difficult footwork and strikes (of a ball)). On the contrary, building a better base of anaerobic endurance allows one to repeat those moves again and again for a longer period without gassing and with less dropoff in the precision.

OK Peacedog - I have been lifting weights and practicing Taiji, Xingyi, and Bagua since I was a teenager. I see absolutely no conflict between resistance training and the internal martial arts. I am 73 years old now and my lower body routine (the most important) consists of Squats: 3 sets of 10 reps with my body weight (150 lbs); Deadlifts: 3 sets of 10 with my body weight; Leg Presses: 3 sets of 8 with 2 x my body weight (300 lbs): Calf Raises: 3 sets of 20 with my body weight.

I do this lower body routine every third day, alternating with an upper body routine and an aerobic day. I do my taiji and weapons forms every day with various qigong exercises. I feel like I'm 20 years old!

If you are 73 and feel 20, you are definitely my new hero on the board.

P.S. the leg training makes even more sense (if a typical objection is awkward force movements done by "muscling" upper body portions).

everything wrote:If you are 73 and feel 20, you are definitely my new hero on the board.

It may be difficult for 73 to feel 20. If you are 70 but have:

- 60 look.
- 50 body shape and health.
- 40 sex desire.
- 30 happy heart.

You are doing pretty good.

Ron,

Good for you man. I think you prove my point. Literally.

If I were doing programming I'd recommend a little more weight and a little less volume.

But that is a quibble that misses the point.

The thing that amazes me about resistance training is just how little most people need. The result of effective resistance training is so amazingly outsized versus the amount of effort required it always surprises me how much people fight doing it in some circles.

Between endocrine system effects, preservation/growth of muscle mass, growth of ligament/tendon material, improved damage resistance and enhanced endurance I really don't understand the arguments against it.

As I mentioned earlier in this thread, I've never seen anyone "hurt" their IMA by getting resistance exercise.

And hats off for handling that volume at your age.

Best of luck with your training.

Peacedog

Appledog wrote:

willie wrote:After training for many years in Taiji, I have found that a lot of taiji players consider weight training as something
undesirable. There are many health benefits associated with resistance training. Taiji doesn't really require great strength,
But that doesn't mean that people cant reap in the many rewards of resistance training and having a good understanding of macro-nutrition.

Anyone who does weight training of any kind will completely destroy their ability to do tai chi.

Sure, there is a case for doing specialized weight training once you are at the advanced level, however the way this is usually discussed should make it clear that isn't what we are talking about here.

Chart illustrating the difference between weight training and tai chi:
tai chi <-------------- [ beginner ] --------------> weight training

If you do this kind of stuff, when (if) you ever figure out what you've actually done to your body you will have to go all the way back to being a beginner just to get on the correct path again. And some forms of muscle development are semi-permanent. Depending on how you train and how old you are, you run the risk of doing permanent damage and being unable to learn tai chi for the rest of your life.

JMO

This is an interesting post.
I have very formidable taijiquan. It is not Americanized either.
Could you please give me some hard evidence? Or are you just repeating something that you heard too many times?
Please keep in mind that it seems that most of the supposed authorities end up getting beat up in seconds.
Do you think that this could be considered hard evidence of wrongful personal opinion's?
Thanks

Ron Panunto wrote:

everything wrote:I'd be more interested in the anecdotal data of any posters here with regard to qigong + resistance training and not theory on one vs. the other. I haven't noticed a detrimental effect in my qigong (health-oriented mostly; I can't send anyone flying etc. etc. though) from a modest level of resistance training and certainly zero reduction of coordination of difficult moves (technically difficult footwork and strikes (of a ball)). On the contrary, building a better base of anaerobic endurance allows one to repeat those moves again and again for a longer period without gassing and with less dropoff in the precision.

OK Peacedog - I have been lifting weights and practicing Taiji, Xingyi, and Bagua since I was a teenager. I see absolutely no conflict between resistance training and the internal martial arts. I am 73 years old now and my lower body routine (the most important) consists of Squats: 3 sets of 10 reps with my body weight (150 lbs); Deadlifts: 3 sets of 10 with my body weight; Leg Presses: 3 sets of 8 with 2 x my body weight (300 lbs): Calf Raises: 3 sets of 20 with my body weight.

I do this lower body routine every third day, alternating with an upper body routine and an aerobic day. I do my taiji and weapons forms every day with various qigong exercises. I feel like I'm 20 years old!

That's great man, Its like the the fountain of youth.
To keep growing and not shrinking...

Appledog,

You are going to need to be more specific making a claim like that.

Peacedog

Thanks to everyone for keeping this thread civil!

Hello, I'd like to maintain a 'cool post count' of 108 posts. This particular post has gone beyond that number and has therefore expired.

I'm sorry if you were looking for some old information but I'll do my best to answer you if you send me a DM with a question in it.

willie wrote:

marvin8 wrote:
I am not questioning your knowledge. However, people may watch your videos and believe all they need to do is bench press for an overall strength program.

A little more explanation in your introduction video may clear things up.

Benching is part of the big 3. Squats, Dead lift, Bench. They are all compound movements and they are the best builders.
I'm glad you brought this to my attention, What would you suggest?

I believe bench and squats are good. I do bench and squats for 6-12 reps. Personally for deadlifts, I stopped doing them after hearing people complain of spine injuries (even with good form), develops big waist, not necessary and not worth the risk. I am not saying that is true, only to do your own research.

You set a premise in your OP:

Resistance training and Macro-nutrition

There are many health benefits associated with resistance training. Taiji doesn't really require great strength,
But that doesn't mean that people cant reap in the many rewards of resistance training and having a good understanding of macro-nutrition.

My "suggestion" is to not follow your 30 day program for health and Taiji. Because, I think you are showing a program to maximize the amount of weight you can lift in the bench press for one repetition. This can lead to joint and tendon damage. It can be bad especially for Tai Chi where rotation/open and closing of joints are important.

Ron's strength/bodybuilding program is healthy as he does 8-20 reps:

Ron Panunto wrote:OK Peacedog - I have been lifting weights and practicing Taiji, Xingyi, and Bagua since I was a teenager. I see absolutely no conflict between resistance training and the internal martial arts. I am 73 years old now and my lower body routine (the most important) consists of Squats: 3 sets of 10 reps with my body weight (150 lbs); Deadlifts: 3 sets of 10 with my body weight; Leg Presses: 3 sets of 8 with 2 x my body weight (300 lbs): Calf Raises: 3 sets of 20 with my body weight.

I do this lower body routine every third day, alternating with an upper body routine and an aerobic day. I do my taiji and weapons forms every day with various qigong exercises. I feel like I'm 20 years old!

willie wrote:This is just a little video series that I thought would be cool to film in order to have a visual of the 30 day process and result.
Many people are skeptical, but I can tell you that my training partner who is 6'5" 230 lbs can not hang with me. In-fact he is
upset because I decided to bench for 30 days straight, Now he is even further behind, Proving that it works.

However, you did not state this in the OP. If you had said, I enjoy powerlifting. I will show how I increase my max in the bench press. It's fun competing with friends in the OP. I would not have any comment on it.

Anyway's, I listened to your constructive criticism and will try much harder to clean up the new video's.
This was the first video that I improved. Thanks!

I actually think that it's the best yet. I thought that it would be too boring to explain in detail, But you were right.

Since the title of you post included Macro Nutrition, I felt you should have explained how much protein and fat you were targeting per day and how much you weigh. You only said this shake is good for you, chicken and fish is good without a brief explanation of what macros are.

Your comments in the thread was confusing and possibly conflicting as evidence by other posters comments (e.g., is the goal strength, bodybuilding, powerlifting, a combination, etc.).

I did not plan to watch all your videos. That is why I only responded to a specific question you made and did not intend to critique your program. I am only commenting on the content of your thread. It is not meant to be taken personally.

Oh, here is a recent 3 hour interview with Dorian Yates, former professional bodybuilder. He won the Mr. Olympia title six consecutive times from 1992 to 1997.

Edit: @ 15:10 - 23:45, Discussion on injuries from heavy lifting/powerlifting.

Streamed live on Jul 26, 2017:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cu-7WSjaVyU

marvin8 wrote:

Bhassler wrote:

marvin8 wrote:comments

retort

retort to the retort

You're right, I was having a moment (or six). Sorry.

Bhassler wrote:

marvin8 wrote:

Bhassler wrote:
retort

retort to the retort

You're right, I was having a moment (or six). Sorry.

No. Thank you for helping me sharpen my heckler material.

willie,
Not fully understanding as you never explain in detail, however, you never touch the bar to your chest. In the last video, the bar appears to be a foot above your chest. You never show a full range of motion.

In powerlifting if the bar does not touch the chest area, it is a failed lift. Therefore, you would not be able to say, "I bench 'X' amount."

marvin8 wrote:

Since the title of you post included Macro Nutrition, I felt you should have explained how much protein and fat you were targeting per day and how much you weigh. You only said this shake is good for you, chicken and fish is good without a brief explanation of what macros are.

Your comments in the thread was confusing and possibly conflicting as evidence by other posters comments (e.g., is the goal strength, bodybuilding, powerlifting, a combination, etc.).

I did not plan to watch all your videos. That is why I only responded to a specific question you made and did not intend to critique your program. I am only commenting on the content of your thread. It is not meant to be taken personally.

Hi Marvin. I didn't take anything personally.

To answer both posts.
The angle of the camera makes the bar look much higher off the chest then it is. " I showed that in one of those video's". When I'm only training lockouts.
Training lockouts only targets a very small range of motion, This is intentional.


My target macro's...
Protein is 1-2 grams per pound of lean body mass. This is how I adjust my diet, With the variance of protein.
My exact diet "Which I set up".

Daily calories 2,660. With 45% of those calories coming from carbohydrates, 15% of those calories coming from fat and
40 percent coming from Protein.

The exact numbers listed below.
Protein = 266 grams.
Carbohydrates = 299 grams.
Fat = 44 grams
Fiber = 30 grams.

This is my current diet, It was less, but because I'm training so much, I'M HUNGRY ALL THE TIME! lol!

The guys that you mentioned are professional power lifters/body builders who get paid to perform, I'm a hobbyist.
I'm also a drug free lifter...

Hello, I'd like to maintain a 'cool post count' of 108 posts. This particular post has gone beyond that number and has therefore expired.

I'm sorry if you were looking for some old information but I'll do my best to answer you if you send me a DM with a question in it.

I was paying attention lol

Appledog basically cited this phenomena as to why weightlifting was bad/ contradictory to Taiji practice.
http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2014/09/ ... -arm-trick

Maybe you should just link back to that post and take it from there. It will be an interesting discussion for sure.