is one hour zhan zhuang a good pedagogy?

[Strange]

yes humans are can be strange animal
rather go into denial than face the facts

[RobP2]

Here's a fact - what was the original question? You know, the whole point of the thread. It was very specific and seems quite easy to understand and answer

[cloudz]

It was also in fact specifically about Yiquan..

Maybe then; all answers 1. not appreciative of that fact, 2.or with that in mind, or 3. with some experience of it and about it on display, should 4. be well discarded and ignored

Please ?

[cloudz]

so is yiquan a pedagogy for the elite that you give for beginner with danger of tension on the body as the body has not trained enought yet?

the specific question again.

I would say looking at it again, and the lead up to the question: That no it's not for the elite, and there's no danger of tension in the body as a result.
I would also add, not worry too much if you just have an hour to spare and you end up splitting half and half between ZZ and Shi li. Or even if you have an hour and you want to split between zz, shi li and footwork drills. And so on, so forth.

Sometimes you might have 1.5 hours sometimes 2. Maybe more.

The thing about training time is that it's valuable to everyone. So it's only natural to have your own priorities - whoever you are, whatever you do..
"Once upon a time and place" some of us might have had the luxury of having hours and hours to spare each and every day for training.. and any number of available training partners if and when needed.

Imagine that.

[Taste of Death]

With ZZ one tries to capture the feeling and then hold on to it.

IMA uses ZZ in the beginning of practice to get the feeling. Then we use it; in shi li, mo ca bu, stepping, striking, kicking, etc. ZZ helps create the correct body state. If you are standing for an hour you are deluding yourself. You may have had "it" in the first few minutes of standing but very few people can hold "it" for long.

It's like waiting to take a penalty kick. Once the referee blows the whistle, get on with it. But we all know what happens when one loses the feeling. Ask Roberto Baggio.

[I-mon]

There are many layers to zhanzhuang training. I used to stand for long periods, and went through a year or two of standing for several hours a day, squeezing in a standing session whenever I got a spare 20 minutes or more. It was great, but a lot of it was not necessarily the best use of my time, since my life often took me to different places so I was not getting the regular feedback from my teachers that I would have needed to progress more quickly. I've only recently taken it up again as a daily thing, and now I'm far more active while standing than I ever was before, doing all sorts of internal contractions and stretches and twists while my limbs and head stay still.

The short answer to the original question is really easy: it all depends. How much time does the student have per day to train? How long are they likely to be with this teacher? What sort of physical and mental condition are they in? What is their body type and temperament? What sort of training background do they have already? What are their goals?

[AL2016]

thanks

[chud]

I think a good rule of thumb in the beginning is to do standing for 20 minutes minimum.
But I agree that once you are able to achieve the state you need to be in, you can get to it in a shorter period.
The key is knowing when you're there.

[yeniseri]

My limited exposure is as follows;

I had about 20 individuals, who had a chronic condition and were able to use it to improve the WBC/RBC ratio while undergoing their therapy.
This was an adjunct practice having no relationship to anything but was positive to the extent that the outcome was beneficial to those who participated. Zhanzhuang (post stand) is not meant to be a replacement for anything. The subject followed the orders of their medical personnel but wanted to try something different and that is the context of use.

This has to be a choice as most people who are healthy would deem it a waste of time. Personal experience, per one of my teachers was that when he tried to introduce it to the 'health' element" of qigong, people stopped coming to class so he stopped teaching it {as no one showed up}.

If anyone is interested, there is a monograph somewhere of Yiquan founder and one of his students (dentist-my mind is fading on this) who wrote about the immunological background of post standing and it benefit on blood chemistry. I will try to post when I find. A French study also did a small sample size of same and found equal benefit with people who had cancer and shoed positive results.

The external symptom are merely pre stage of preparation for the 'deeper' benefits but good to see a pattern!
http://www.arthritisresearch.us/zhan-zh ... huang.html

[Patrick]

I have that book at home. It just lists stuff, without any sources. So I am not sure about its value
If anyone is interested I could post a few paragraphs.

[AL2016]

Thanks

[wiesiek]

ZZ = standing meditation has Chan /Chinese Zen/ roots
so,
if we speaking` about IMA
value of it is unquestionable.
how much ? depends of you, your aim and place on the Way.

[cloudz]

There are standing poses in Yoga and Chan Buddhism has roots in India.
But I don't agree though Wiesiek, I beleive it's also in/ came from Daoism.
I'm not a historian though, but I think it's perfectly viable that this kind of training developed in different cultures
without necessarily directly influencing each other.

It would be pretty hard to prove anything either way probably.
There was a recent thread where there is some research suggesting this kind of thing was also used by the Greeks.
Maybe my lot started it, or we got it from Egypt... who the hell knows.
Not worth worrying about, important thing is the training - if it's what you get something from.

[yeniseri]

There are standing poses in Yoga and Chan Buddhism has roots in India.
But I don't agree though Wiesiek, I beleive it's also in/ came from Daoism.

It would be pretty hard to prove anything either way probably.

There is no doubt that a yogic tradition (India) influenced Daoism but the extent of the borrowing is 'confusing' but it is acknowledged that this took place.
Livia Kohn has addressed some of this in one of her works, Chinese Healing Exercises but while it appears that the postures may be similar, the Daoist or Chan version left out the actual background and reason when compared to the Indian rational for the posture(s). On a personal note, there is an alleged pre 1940 routine that I learned that has a few 'yoga looking postures' but when I compared to the New Qigong movements, the former is seen to be not authentic because it was too much like "yoga" ANother teacher that I know about (have not met here), I came across an old "qigong" book with a few yoga looking postures. Name of teacher is Lily Siou, if I recall correctly but the post 1950s re-engineering of daoyingong created a whole bunch of stuff that has muddied the water of knowledge and understanding because much of the information left out would seem to have made the qigong rationale far more enriching

[AL2016]

thanks