is one hour zhan zhuang a good pedagogy?

[mrtoes]

Does anyone champion the other approach: start with a few quality minutes, and build your way up?

I'm all about quality over quantity. I don't have an hour a day just for wuji, and don't think that's an efficient use of my time.

Matthew

[johnwang]

There are many ZZ postures training that are difficult to do for 1 hour. Try to stand like this ZZ "羅漢观天 (Luo Han Guan Tian) - Lou Han looks at sky ",



or this ZZ "舍身探海 (She Shen Tan Hai) - Sacristy body and dive into ocean" for 1 hour and see if you can do it.

[Dmitri]

About a decade (or more?) ago, during the 5-day Xinyi Dao boot camp in CA, Li Tailiang put us into something like this:



One of the 5 "animal" stances (the dragon, this one) you're supposed to hold, part of their system's excellent neigong curriculum.

Forget an hour... A minute in that would be a serious feat of strength.

(and yes, that leg/foot is off the ground)

I don't have an hour a day just for wuji, and don't think that's an efficient use of my time

+1

[Patrick]

I think comparing those exercises above with Yi Quan ZZ is not a good idea.
These exercses - very likley - may have other intended purposes.
The only advantage of longer durations are IMHO more benefical to the mind, but neccesarily not so imporant for improving some other abilites (postural stability + a kind of elastic explosive force).

[mrtoes]

Haha my hsing-i teacher used to put us into low dragon with body weight exactly mid-way between our feet - and it was really super painful, especially when you had to do that after two minutes of dragon jumps! Good times.

[cloudz]

If your teacher has skills that you want, and you are certain that he or she is passing them on (look at the students), then training as the teacher asks is generally best practice, imo.

nothing more to be said....

true that!

[BeerlessBoxer]

Not sure if this is exactly right place for my zhan zhuang question, but I didn't feel like this is worth its own thread.

How still, or static, should zhan zhuang actually be? 100% stillness is quite impossible and even unpreferred becouse of tension it might cause. I've personally been playing around with tension or feelings of "stuckness" lately during zhan zhuang, and I have two ways I deal them with. First is by doing quite large flexing/twisting movement, which usually causes some cracking and popping sounds from my back/shoulders, and I feel immediately release of these tensed/stuck places and whole body feels smoother afterwards. Another way I've been trying is, by releasing these same feelings of tension just by focusing my mind/awareness on these parts, I feel like this is also releasing the feeling of tension/"stuckness", but not as effectively as physical flexing, if I flex some time after this, it might still cause a sound, but not always.

Anyone got any feedback with this? Should I keep on flexing during zhan zhuang when I encounter these "blocks", or should I try to keep more static, and learn to release the tension with just my mind...?

[yeniseri]

Not sure if this is exactly right place for my zhan zhuang question, but I didn't feel like this is worth its own thread.

How still, or static, should zhan zhuang actually be? 100% stillness is quite impossible and even unpreferred becouse of tension it might cause. I've personally been playing around with tension or feelings of "stuckness" lately during zhan zhuang, and I have two ways I deal them with. First is by doing quite large flexing/twisting movement, which usually causes some cracking and popping sounds from my back/shoulders, and I feel immediately release of these tensed/stuck places and whole body feels smoother afterwards. Another way I've been trying is, by releasing these same feelings of tension just by focusing my mind/awareness on these parts, I feel like this is also releasing the feeling of tension/"stuckness", but not as effectively as physical flexing, if I flex some time after this, it might still cause a sound, but not always.

Anyone got any feedback with this? Should I keep on flexing during zhan zhuang when I encounter these "blocks", or should I try to keep more static, and learn to release the tension with just my mind...?

Lohan Looking at moon and single leg stance would be more appropriate as CMA function/utility whereas yangsheng zhuang fa (wuji zhuang!!!) is less taxing on the musculoskeletal system and tends to be health affiliated. The silk reeling type chan sujin with habituation of getting section of the body ready through the 'exercises' benefits the body so you are used to that range of movement within use of the encounter (aka shuaijiao, taijiquan, baquazhang, etc) I realize shuaijiao stands on its own but its principles integrated into CMA is one of the best strategies! The shuai concept is alive and getting better

[johnwang]

When you get old, you will have tendency to have your spine to bend forward like this:



The normal tree hug ZZ that you keep your head straight up is not enough to fix this problem.



In order to fix your problem, you will need to bend your body backward like this ZZ "羅漢观天 (Luo Han Guan Tian) - Lou Han looks at sky ",



Also when you get old, your balance will get worse and you will have chance to fall. In order to enhance your balance, you will need single leg ZZ "舍身探海 (She Shen Tan Hai) - Sacristy body and dive into ocean" like this.



Those are good reasons that head up both legs on the ground, the ZZ "yangsheng zhuang fa (wuji zhuang)" is not good enough for you. You will need more than that.

[BeerlessBoxer]

Lohan Looking at moon and single leg stance would be more appropriate as CMA function/utility whereas yangsheng zhuang fa (wuji zhuang!!!) is less taxing on the musculoskeletal system and tends to be health affiliated. The silk reeling type chan sujin with habituation of getting section of the body ready through the 'exercises' benefits the body so you are used to that range of movement within use of the encounter (aka shuaijiao, taijiquan, baquazhang, etc) I realize shuaijiao stands on its own but its principles integrated into CMA is one of the best strategies! The shuai concept is alive and getting better

yeniseri and johnwang, thanks for the feedback. I'm actually doing only little part of standing in wuji, and most of the time is spent in basic "embracing the tree" and "Arhat"-postures. I think I'll do some playing with Lohan looking at the sky and She Shen Tan Hai soon too. (She Shen Tan Hai actually reminds me a lot of bodyweighted single-legged romanian deadlift I did at some time..)

[Taste of Death]

She Shen Tan Hai actually reminds me a lot of bodyweighted single-legged romanian deadlift I did at some time..

Exactly.

Even the neophyte can tell that is not zz.

[johnwang]

She Shen Tan Hai actually reminds me a lot of bodyweighted single-legged romanian deadlift I did at some time..

Even the neophyte can tell that is not zz.

What's the definition of ZZ? The ancient ZZ "十三太保(13 Tai Bao)" existed long before the yiquan system was even created. It makes no sense that after yiquan had created Wuji ZZ, suddenly all the other ancient ZZ are no longer ZZ.

After all, the yiquan is a very "young" CMA system.

1. 旱地拔葱 (Han Di Ba Cong) Pull onion off a dry ground
2. 李奎磨斧 (Li Kui Mo Fu) Li Kui sharps the axe
3. 仙人照鏡 (Xian Ren Zhao Jing) Angle look at mirror
4. 钝链割谷 (Dun Lian Ge Gu) Dull sickle cut rice
5. 舍身探海 (She Shen Tan Hai) Sacristy body and dive into ocean
6. 魁 星点斗 (Kui Xing Dian Dou) Kui Xing points at star
7. 烏龍戏水 (Wu Long Xi Shui) Black dragon plays with water
8. 羅漢观天 (Luo Han Guan Tian) Lou Han looks at sky
9. 燕子超水 (Yan Zi Chao Shui) Swallow skips water
10. 合卧 (He Wo) Combine stance
11. 古樹盤根 (Gu Shu Pan Gen) Old tree twist the root
12. 托天式 (Tuo Tian Shi) Lift the sky
13. 三平 (San Ping) Three plains

[daniel pfister]

From experience I never found any increased benefits to an hour+ standing. It was interesting to do it from a psychological point of view

The psychological benefits of training this way, whatever they are exactly, shouldn't be dismissed though.

[daniel pfister]

I actually think ZZ is good training for a somewhat experienced beginner. It's sort of like endurance training for IMA, our version of jogging. If you have 1 hour to solo train per day then 2 or 3 days per week could be devoted to zz training. Switching stances, resting in between, but generally trying to stand in a relaxed way for longer and longer. It provides a good goal for beginners to work up to, and the training can help you to endure longer push hands practice sessions. I used to train this way regularly, but stopped because of time constraints and other training priorities. I do notice the difference when I attend longer, 2 hr + push hands gatherings or tournaments that my legs feel more fatigued than they used to be, but it's not such a huge deal to me as I've already put in the time for push hands training. For a beginner, having that stance endurance could help you train longer and/or get more out of your partnered training sessions which should also be a big priority. But if you're not interested in push hands training then it may not be useful.

[Taste of Death]

She Shen Tan Hai actually reminds me a lot of bodyweighted single-legged romanian deadlift I did at some time..

Even the neophyte can tell that is not zz.

What's the definition of ZZ? The ancient ZZ "十三太保(13 Tai Bao)" existed long before the yiquan system was even created. It makes no sense that after yiquan had created Wuji ZZ, suddenly all the other ancient ZZ are no longer ZZ.

After all, the yiquan is a very "young" CMA system.

1. 旱地拔葱 (Han Di Ba Cong) Pull onion off a dry ground
2. 李奎磨斧 (Li Kui Mo Fu) Li Kui sharps the axe
3. 仙人照鏡 (Xian Ren Zhao Jing) Angle look at mirror
4. 钝链割谷 (Dun Lian Ge Gu) Dull sickle cut rice
5. 舍身探海 (She Shen Tan Hai) Sacristy body and dive into ocean
6. 魁 星点斗 (Kui Xing Dian Dou) Kui Xing points at star
7. 烏龍戏水 (Wu Long Xi Shui) Black dragon plays with water
8. 羅漢观天 (Luo Han Guan Tian) Lou Han looks at sky
9. 燕子超水 (Yan Zi Chao Shui) Swallow skips water
10. 合卧 (He Wo) Combine stance
11. 古樹盤根 (Gu Shu Pan Gen) Old tree twist the root
12. 托天式 (Tuo Tian Shi) Lift the sky
13. 三平 (San Ping) Three plains

She Shen Tan Hai is a difficult postion to maintain. One cannot relax in SSTH for long and that would change the focus of the exercise. It could be done as part of a combination of other postures, transitioning through each in a zz state. I consider my entire practice to be zz except for the warm up exercises.