is one hour zhan zhuang a good pedagogy?

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: is one hour zhan zhuang a good pedagogy?

Postby jjy5016 on Mon Jun 27, 2016 11:50 am

AL2016,

In response to your original question I say yes.

There are many different types of zhan zhuang that are part of yiquan. The different types develop different things. An hour of standing seems to be a standard that was set way back when.

In the line of yiquan I practice the first three years of standing is done in a similar manner to that of the shaolin yijin ching. It is mentally relaxed but very physically taxing. One literally produces pools of sweat during an hour session. This develops a very strong structure. Other systems use different methods to achieve similar results. Wang Xiang Zhai described it as stretching the tendons and compressing or shrinking the bones. After the foundation is built the standing becomes more and more relaxed until eventually there is no muscular tension involved in holding the posture. An hour was the minimum at our school. Sometimes it would go quite a bit longer if sifu was in a particularly ball breaking mood.

The majority of Wang's students were very accomplished fighters when they came to him. Why did they study from him? Because he was capable of handing them a beating with ease. He had something that he was able to pass on to them without a lot of extra crap thrown in so he could buy his bai jiu.

One of Wang's reasons for changing the way he taught hsing yi was because too many students were caught up in forms and not gaining the essence of the system. He figured out ways for them to develop the necessary strengths and skills through the different components of yiquan. Standing is only one of those components. The different shi li & mo cha bo exercises took the place of the forms that other systems used to train with. Wang's students did running for endurance, punched very heavy bags and did a lot of sparring.

Yiquan was a very structured training system that produced great results.

For those who think that standing practice is a waste of time I would dare to say that most of them never tried it.

For those who claim to have done legitimate yiquan standing practice for a period and claim to not have gained anything I would offer that either their teacher didn't teach/know an authentic standing method or they didn't practice it correctly and diligently.

I wouldn't say that yiquan is for the elite but it is not for those who expect to become an unbeatable fighter in a few months.


John
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Re: is one hour zhan zhuang a good pedagogy?

Postby amor on Mon Jun 27, 2016 1:11 pm

jjy5016 wrote:AL2016,



In the line of yiquan I practice the first three years of standing is done in a similar manner to that of the shaolin yijin ching. It is mentally relaxed but very physically taxing. One literally produces pools of sweat during an hour session. This develops a very strong structure. Other systems use different methods to achieve similar results. Wang Xiang Zhai described it as stretching the tendons and compressing or shrinking the bones. After the foundation is built the standing becomes more and more relaxed until eventually there is no muscular tension involved in holding the posture. An hour was the minimum at our school. Sometimes it would go quite a bit longer if sifu was in a particularly ball breaking mood.



John


Similar type of training in my line of taichi. We work on getting into wide stances which require you to go pretty low so you get shrinking/compression of the bones along with the internal organs, the ribcage is incredibly flexible you find when you do this aspect of the training right. Instead of stretching the tendons we have Grasping the tendons. The key difference being that when you strengthen the tendons on one side the other side of the body with the same set of tendons automatically 'let goes' or stretches and facilitates an overall balancing out of the fascia, muscles etc.

Its hard work and you won't be able to do an hour of this continously but with short breaks where we stand or sit in a relaxed standing pose to instigate blood blow through the new acquired connection that should have come online with the previous actions.

But yeah structure is the basis of 'strength', when someone is 'strong' or stronger than another person its because their structure is better than another's and this work really does give you a strong structure. Everything recolves around improving the structure and when its strong the energy used to hold your previously faulty structure is put to where its needed like the organs etc.
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Re: is one hour zhan zhuang a good pedagogy?

Postby AL2016 on Mon Jun 27, 2016 3:30 pm

john who is your yiquan teacher?

one question how an art for elite taught to mass people?

most of people are tensed how can they relax by pillar standing?
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Re: is one hour zhan zhuang a good pedagogy?

Postby jjy5016 on Tue Jun 28, 2016 2:47 am

Al my teacher's name was Lau and he studied with small Han and for a while with Han Xing Qiao.

As for your question the answer is the same for every other system. If you want to draw the masses and make plenty of money you make it easier. You water it down and create new exercises & forms and once they get to a certain level you start selling the secrets to the senior students so you can suck even more money out of them. There isn't a system I know of only for the elite. It certainly isn't yiquan.

Learning to relax in my experience is different for every person. There are physical signs one may look for but I think ultimately what it comes down to is one's own mind.
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Re: is one hour zhan zhuang a good pedagogy?

Postby AL2016 on Tue Jun 28, 2016 1:31 pm

i dont speak about people who make for health i speak about people want gong fu figthing

all the great master when beginner has for first step to relax articulation

and then when you master and that your body is relax and master empty full principle you can stand in pillar standing for one hour

like sun lu tang was teaching one hour pillar standing to who? his best student ,only one

and if you dont control year after year and select the students you give them to stand one hour zz , what is the consequence?

student and master smoking like fireman the yang energy so hot wants to go out

violent people who are more violent dont control their yang energy

a lack in mutation force in tui shou because of too much tension.
Last edited by AL2016 on Tue Jun 28, 2016 1:36 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: is one hour zhan zhuang a good pedagogy?

Postby I-mon on Tue Jun 28, 2016 6:11 pm

Nice to see you here John.
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Re: is one hour zhan zhuang a good pedagogy?

Postby jjy5016 on Wed Jun 29, 2016 10:52 am

AL2016 wrote:i dont speak about people who make for health i speak about people want gong fu figthing

all the great master when beginner has for first step to relax articulation

and then when you master and that your body is relax and master empty full principle you can stand in pillar standing for one hour

like sun lu tang was teaching one hour pillar standing to who? his best student ,only one

and if you dont control year after year and select the students you give them to stand one hour zz , what is the consequence?

student and master smoking like fireman the yang energy so hot wants to go out

violent people who are more violent dont control their yang energy

a lack in mutation force in tui shou because of too much tension.


Hi Al,

I guess all of the second generation students did not teach the same. Wang wrote about sweating when he used to do his standing while his teacher slept.
Do you think he was sweating from being physically relaxed?

Actually an hour of standing is a minor achievement.

Everyone that came to my classes had to stand for at least an hour. If middle aged women could do it on their first day of class and come back for more then it isn't so hard.

Two to three hours or more is much more of an accomplishment but very few have the time or commitment to get to that level in today's busy lifestyle.
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Re: is one hour zhan zhuang a good pedagogy?

Postby AL2016 on Wed Jun 29, 2016 5:59 pm

thanks the question is not sweating or not but when can you give the right to sweat ,

like i tell you i give the right to practice the michael jackson moonwalk do i give it to little children who study to walk as beginner?

and sweat doesnt mean to be tense maybe he was hot in summer and you should see the word in chinese as traduction is lying like the proverb say it.

i think in the history the first step is form or external technical not pillar standing

in taiji its evidence

in bagua i think the same

and in xingyi i dont think santishi for beginner
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Re: is one hour zhan zhuang a good pedagogy?

Postby mrtoes on Wed Jun 29, 2016 7:16 pm

Standing is great, but if you are not taught what to do whilst standing you it's a waste of time and you might as well just go and watch television. Standing for emptiness is great - I do it ever single day - but there is so much more you can put in.

Most people who have standing as part of their style have no power. That shows that they were never shown what to do whilst standing. If you stand properly for some time you should have a connected body - meaning you are a pain in the ass to throw and can hit hard with little wind-up. This shouldn't take an hour a day either, if you are training efficiently.

Don't take that as a knock against yichuan or anyone here or anything else - I know nothing about your style or it's efficacy - just making a general point.

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Re: is one hour zhan zhuang a good pedagogy?

Postby Taste of Death on Thu Jun 30, 2016 4:49 pm

Han Shi Yi Quan zhan zhuang


We don't stand still or for very long. Try to capture the feeling and hold on to it.
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Re: is one hour zhan zhuang a good pedagogy?

Postby Strange on Fri Jul 01, 2016 12:19 am

Taste of Death wrote:We don't stand still or for very long. Try to capture the feeling and hold on to it.


i think this is the correct way; especially for beginners :)
(not meaning you are a beginner; meaning beginners in general)
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Re: is one hour zhan zhuang a good pedagogy?

Postby san5324 on Sun Jul 03, 2016 7:02 pm

I guess you should start with just 20 minutes? Hack when I started I could not even hold 2 minutes before I cramped up. My teacher had to correct me so many times. My teacher told me 3 months of zhan zhuang would be enough to have some serious internal power improvement. I just practice it every day for 20 minutes at home when I wake up and when I have training for about 15 minutes prior to starting.

the first 3 months I could not feel any difference, i thought it was so boring but after the moment comes that you feel the difference, then it makes sense and makes you addicted to it.

When you have real qi flow without blockades, then you can show it to other people. My teacher can shows you goosebumbs which actually is qi flow, even when it is 42 degrees in the summer here in Hangzhou, you see how it starts and it will go away when he wants it. I only have that sometimes so I still have a long way to go.
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Re: is one hour zhan zhuang a good pedagogy?

Postby mattj on Mon Jul 04, 2016 12:01 pm

Does anyone champion the other approach: start with a few quality minutes, and build your way up?
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Re: is one hour zhan zhuang a good pedagogy?

Postby Taste of Death on Mon Jul 04, 2016 12:35 pm

mattj wrote:Does anyone champion the other approach: start with a few quality minutes, and build your way up?


I started with Han Xing Yuen's eight postures, holding each for five minutes. If I stood in wuji at the beginning and end that would be one hour of standing. The goal was to have a blank mind, letting the thoughts come and go but not paying attention to them. I now do Han Jing Chen's Han Shi method where we only stand for a few minutes at a time, thinking about what we are experiencing. A different type of awareness.
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Re: is one hour zhan zhuang a good pedagogy?

Postby Bugang on Tue Jul 05, 2016 9:45 am

aiasthewall wrote:If your teacher has skills that you want, and you are certain that he or she is passing them on (look at the students), then training as the teacher asks is generally best practice, imo.


nothing more to be said.... :)
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