Dai Mai & Chong Mai (Belt & Penetrating Vessels)

[LaoDan]

Through my study of CMAs I have been exposed to some theory and practices from TCM and Daoist and Buddhist cultivation methods, but my knowledge of these is rather limited (often getting information from reading rather than from practice). With D_Glen, Mix and others posting threads concerning these theories and practices that they were exposed to by their MA teachers, I decided to post some questions in the hope that knowledgeable forum members may share information.

Most of us are probably familiar with the Ren Mai and Du Mai (Conception CV and Governing GV Vessels) and the Microcosmic Orbit, various individual acupuncture points, etc. Knowledge of these seem to make a real difference when put into our MA practices. My questions are if knowledge of the Dai Mai (Belt or Girdle Vessel) and/or the Chong Mai (Penetrating or Thrusting Vessel) also contribute to significant enhancements of MA practice. Are there exercises in your MA studies that specifically address these Extraordinary Vessels?

I have occasionally heard the Dai Mai mentioned in my Taijiquan training, but only in a general context, primarily referring to the circulation of energy horizontally (and connecting the Microcosmic Orbit circulation through the Ren and Du to the other vessels that run through the torso). Are there specific exercises used in MA training that enhances the circulation in this vessel? Does knowledge and training this make significant benefits to your MA practice, or is it more that the circulation in the Dai Mai happens whether or not you have knowledge of it – it happens on it’s own without significant benefits from additional training specific to it?

I practice, and like, a waist circling exercise that I was told is very beneficial for Taijiquan (standing stationary with feet shoulder width apart or closer, and circling the waist in one then the other direction – when I was first taught this I was instructed to keep the head stationary, but I think that head movement is also OK), but I was not told if this was just to keep the waist loose in a physical sense, or if it may also involve circling energy in the Dai Mai.

I have heard very little about the Chong Mai in relation to Taijiquan. It seems like this vessel may be a link between the Ren and Du and may be important to the circulation of the Microcosmic Orbit, as well as throughout the body from the head all the way to the feet. I have read that some think the Ren Mai is associated with Jing, the Chong Mai with Qi (and blood), and the Du Mai with Shen. It is also possible that the Chong Mai is important in Zhong Ding (Central Equilibrium) in Taijiquan. Is there information that IMA practitioners should know about this vessel? Again, are there specific exercises targeted to this (or is it already addressed by such things as sinking/relaxing/rooting to the Yongquan K-1 point in the foot, the Huiyun on the perenium ‘lifting’ with tailbone ‘tucked’, and the suspension of the crown of the head and the Baihui point, in conjunction with the Microcosmic Orbit, Dantien and Mingmen, etc.)?

I may not be knowledgeable enough ask the correct questions, but I would appreciate any additional information relevant to the IMAs about the Dai Mai and Chong Mai.

Dan

[Taste of Death]

I practice, and like, a waist circling exercise that I was told is very beneficial for Taijiquan (standing stationary with feet shoulder width apart or closer, and circling the waist in one then the other direction – when I was first taught this I was instructed to keep the head stationary, but I think that head movement is also OK), but I was not told if this was just to keep the waist loose in a physical sense, or if it may also involve circling energy in the Dai Mai.

There are two exercises; one with feet together and hands on lower back, one with feet apart and hands on hips. Besides loosening up the hips it also massages the internal organs.

[yeniseri]

As I have 'evolved" with the TCM/CCM paradigm, circulation is throughout the body as opposed to sections of it that the * 8 Extrraordinary Vessels' allegedly represent. I still use some of the purported associations as part and parcel of benefit but some things just do not make sense within a scientific framework. I usually tell people do not worry about the Vessels themselves but any all body workout will benefit them. It is absurd that the 8 Vessels benefits MA practice but your best bet is to weigh the "reality" and the "illusion" and make a choice based on your mental sphere.

[I-mon]

Worth considering:

http://www.jcm.co.uk/research-archive/article/chong-mai-the-vascular-system-2770/

Chong Mai = the vascular system

A paper by a UK author suggests that ancient Chinese texts relating to the Chong Mai (Penetrating Vessel or Sea of Blood), are likely to have been a description of the vascular system, derived via cadaver dissection. The author notes that while accepted scholarly opinion holds that the ancient Chinese rarely used dissection in order to explore the anatomy of the human body, The Yellow Emperor's Classic of Internal Medicine describes using palpation to examine the living and dissection to examine the dead. The author of this paper used dissection to compare descriptions of the Chong Mai with human vascular anatomy. Fifteen acupuncture points located on the other 12 channels bearing the name ‘Chong’ were also examined to see if they bore any relationship to the vascular system. The author concludes that the Chong Mai correlates to main blood vessels in the body, in particular the vena cava. Similarly, he reports that most Chong acupuncture points have a strong correspondence with blood vessels, marking terminal arteries on the hands, feet and forehead and anastomoses on the face, body and feet. He concludes that the ancient Chinese had a high degree of anatomical skill in the practice of dissection. (Chong meridian: an ancient Chinese description of the vascular system? Acupunct Med. 2014 Mar 4. [Epub ahead of print]).

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24595019

[neijia_boxer]

Dai mai - Belt, is the only meridian that runs horizontally and "binds" all the (zhang organs) yin and (Fu organs)yang meridians that run vertically in the back and front of the body. it shares some points with gall bladder meridian. umblicus and ming men are important as well. when your belt channel is weak the elderly old guy will pull his pants up really high or wear suspenders.

chong Mei- thoroughfare/thrusting channel, is deep in center of body and is related to your constitution. It uses many of the kidney meridian points running up the front of body from foot.

ren mai, du mai, and chong mei all have common point of hui yin.

[D_Glenn]

Worth considering:

http://www.jcm.co.uk/research-archive/article/chong-mai-the-vascular-system-2770/

Chong Mai = the vascular system

A paper by a UK author suggests that ancient Chinese texts relating to the Chong Mai (Penetrating Vessel or Sea of Blood), are likely to have been a description of the vascular system, derived via cadaver dissection. The author notes that while accepted scholarly opinion holds that the ancient Chinese rarely used dissection in order to explore the anatomy of the human body, The Yellow Emperor's Classic of Internal Medicine describes using palpation to examine the living and dissection to examine the dead. The author of this paper used dissection to compare descriptions of the Chong Mai with human vascular anatomy. Fifteen acupuncture points located on the other 12 channels bearing the name ‘Chong’ were also examined to see if they bore any relationship to the vascular system. The author concludes that the Chong Mai correlates to main blood vessels in the body, in particular the vena cava. Similarly, he reports that most Chong acupuncture points have a strong correspondence with blood vessels, marking terminal arteries on the hands, feet and forehead and anastomoses on the face, body and feet. He concludes that the ancient Chinese had a high degree of anatomical skill in the practice of dissection. (Chong meridian: an ancient Chinese description of the vascular system? Acupunct Med. 2014 Mar 4. [Epub ahead of print]).

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24595019

Thanks for finding that Imon.

It pretty much jives with what I've been taught and as to why we don't really want to 'put one's 'Yi'/mind' on it, or worry about it too much.

One important thing to know about it though is [edit -- when one is learning one important reason why one should not attempt to learn the 'Fan Lang Jin' (Reversing Wave power [of the spine]) is because it is essentially flowing the Ren & Du channels in reverse for a split second and where the branch of the chong meridian that starts at mingmen point, goes into the center of the abdomen (the true lower dantian) then down to Huiyin point, and this will inevitably cause an acute to chronic blood stagnation in this section of the chong meridian. So the strict rules are not to train 'fan lang jin' until after 3 years of foundation Standing practices (to develop the proper flow of the ren and du, and then when you practice 'Fan Lang Jin' still only use it on every 3rd strike when doing drilling strike practices for long periods of time. And also periodic TCM treatments to ensure everything is flowing correctly.]

I also mention the Chong Mai in cultivation terms of Circle Walking, but this is also only concerning the branch that goes partially up the center of the body, (and maybe the other branch that goes up the inside of the spine), but in the texts they refer more to an external Du & Ren and then in the 2nd stage of Cultivation practice (according to Zhang Boduan's theory) one is circulating through what's considered more of an internal Du & Ren, where points aren't really designated because they'd be impossible to needle. So the internal Du & Ren could also be likened to blood vessels, which also makes sense as how they store qi.

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On the belt meridian (dai mai) think more about moving/turning the whole hoop, that surrounds your waist like a girdle, independent of your hips/pelvis. Make it flexible, yet strong. Crucial in having both a strong lower half of the body and a strong upper body. The most important animal to practice in our system of Baguazhang is the Lion and it's main focus is on developing the strength and flexibility of the waist and promoting the health of the belt meridian. It's the trunk of the tree, while the other animals are like the branches. You climb the tree near the trunk, where the branches are thicker. You can go out and sit on a branch/ practice a different animal, but you always need to come back to the trunk in order to climb higher (to keep the belt meridian flexible, strong, and healthy.


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[D_Glenn]

I try not to read any English translations/ interpretations as I think it could interfere with my own work on translating, but I happened to glance at the link Graham_B had posted in the "Symbolism in ICMA" thread and here's another viewpoint from Tom Bisio that I have to agree with:

In Xing Yi Quan, the Dragon is the first animal form one learns, and the Tiger form the second. The Dragon form rises and falls as its body coils and uncoils. The bones and tendons of the whole body extend outward and contract inward. This rising and falling movement of the Dragon opens the Ren (Conception) Channel and the Chong (Thrusting) Channel. Ren Mai, Du Mai (Governing Channel) and Chong Mai are thought to be one meridian (the “Central Channel”). The Central Channel must circulate freely for the other meridians to also circulate freely. If the Central Channel opens, it is said that the ”hundred meridians can open” and power and force will emanate without obstruction. The Tiger uses its back to generate power in crouching or springing, thus, if practiced correctly, the Tiger form is said to open the Du (Governing) Channel which runs up the center of the spine. If the Governing vessel is opened, clear Yang-Qi can ascend to the head and brain, and Ren Mai and Chong Mai will also open. When the Tiger “sits in its cave,” crouching and gathering its power, the qi gathers at Cheng Qiang acu-point (DU 1). When the Tiger ‘Pounces on its prey,” The Mingmen point in the back opens and qi moves upward along the Du Channel.

The "Central Channel" is the Zhong Mai. So this also points to a superficial Du Mai (and Ren Mai) that run just under the surface of the skin, and most of the points can be needled, but the Zhong Mai, Du & Chong combined is deep inside. The Chong Mai also comes up the front of the body and can represent a deeper Ren Mai channel.

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[LaoDan]

Thanks ToD,

I have actually been exposed to both versions, but when following someone without detailed explanations, I did not realize they may have had different functions. The version I learned for TJQ was the hands on the hips; the other (hands on lower back) was from general health exercises and Qigong.

Are they both for loosening up the hips and massaging the internal organs, or are their distinctions between them?

D_Glen,

Thanks for the information. While I usually see analogous usage in TJQ for most of what you post (addressing BGZ), I have never encountered anything analogous to the 'Fan Lang Jin' that you mentioned.

Do any TJQ practitioners have something similar in their traditions/teachings?

Dan

[D_Glenn]

'Fan Lang Jin' is more of a XYLH/ XYQ/ Baguazhang term. TJQ uses different terminology but only Chen TJQ actually uses this movement of the spine and it's, afaik, not taught publicly.

edit-- To be honest, it's not taught publicly in any CMA, my teacher doesn't even teach it to anyone, yet. Dai_Boxer Coach DAi is the only non-Chinese person I can think of who was on the road to learning it, and eventually fighting with it, and there's guys like Iam, who knows it, but it's still a safely guarded secret in his line, and he's not allowed to teach it to just anyone.

There's some XYLH schools who are opening up to the public.

But it's not taught because someone can seriously screw themselves up just by practicing the mechanical movement. If you're in XYLH and you also use the 'Head leads the body' (tou ling shen) then you can also cause serious damage to your own neck on accident.

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[LaoDan]

I know that there is supposed to be a brief reversal of the Ren and Du during sexual climax, but I was assuming that this is different than what you mention for MA practice. Or is there a connection? Climaxing produces a powerful release, and I would not be surprised if MAists found a way to control that powerful release of energy for use in their arts.

[D_Glenn]

^ No. I don't think there's a connection. Two entirely different states of mind and body, at completely opposite ends of the spectrum.


If you ever get the chance to feel the 'fan lang jin' movement, combined with any of it's many varied techniques of the arms used against you in application/ demonstration, then you will know that it's not a release/ or issuing (Fa) but more like feeling like you are falling into the opponent's attack, even though you know deep in your heart and mind that's the worst case scenario that should be happening, but for that split second you can't react appropriately.

It's funny because I've felt it, and because of those experiences, I can see the same thing happening to Dai_Boxer (actually it's Mr Tiger on youtube I can't remember his RSF name) in some of his video clips.

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[Peacedog]

I've used both as a part of a more advanced version of the micro/macro cosmic orbit.

Essentially, once you get to the point that you can "loop" the main orbits at a high rate of speed with multiple cycles per breathe at a certain point it can begin to slam the body around and it becomes hard to further increase the impact of the exercise.

At this point we added the auxiliary orbits into the exercise and it caused a gyroscope type effect where the "energy", for lack of a better word, would be rushing through all of these channels and stabilized the body. It made it easy to spend a lot of time in there.

[D_Glenn]

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[amor]

@ D_Glenn

In figure7 I think the red ball is mingmen, whiteball is real dantien (as opposed to false dantien near navel)? What's the purple ball in figure 8?

[D_Glenn]

^ I don't know. They're just some drawings I found on the net. Like when doing Daoyin/ Qigong, one shouldn't put too much thought on anatomical locations, and definitely don't rely on illustrations.

I just posted the pictures to show the depth that the inner circuit (Dao Microcosmic Orbit) runs in.

There is a good warning that I should mention: you/someone shouldn't attempt to do the inner one until you've spent a really long time (months, years) just circulating the superficial orbit. But if you're doing it in Circle Walking, or similar, this will all come about naturally, you don't force anything to happen, as you are more focused on the martial aspects of the circle walking practice.

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