Docherty Style Tai Chi and Health

[Andy_S]

One page sample is probably legally admissible; Amazon and Google Books do it all the time.

[wayne hansen]

No I did not train with cth but with Colin chau one of his indoor students in the 60's
What did u want me to elaborate on

[allen2saint]

Wayne, looking at the form, I think some of the health aspects are obvious, in terms of stretching the body, but there were some other things about the internal organs, like the lungs and heart, and stimulating circulation with the raising of the arms, that kind of thing, that I have not been exposed to as part of the form. I wondered if you could elaborate on that or point toward a documented source that covers those things, if possible?

[wayne hansen]

Cth was a fighter before all else as was:/is Colin chau
Colin did not talk much about the health aspect
Just do you be strong(meaning healthy)
Da liu talks about specific movements for health in some of his books.
Even things like ba tuan chin that is meant to focus on certain sections for different parts of the body overlap.
My first teacher who was an osteo chiro and accupuncturist and with whom I worked on an apprenticeship basis
Linked certain moves and exercises to specific health outcomes
With later study I put this down to wishful thinking
Good form with directed mind and focus concentrating on application seems to do the trick
I last saw a doctor in 1967

[allen2saint]

Holy shit. Really?

What style do you do? What do you eat? Anyt other important details???

[wayne hansen]

My first style was tang shou Tao
Wu style thru cth and tan mo hung lineage
Malaysian Thai keik thru chock seng kam
Lameco kali
Eat a basic good diet was a vego through the 80's

[Andy_S]

Wayne:

SNIP
What did u want me to elaborate on
SNIP

Dan seems to be of the opinion that the real "key" to the Cheng Tin-hung system, both in terms of health acquisition and power development, are the 24 yin-yang neigong exercises, which are kept pretty tight in Practical Taiji International.

In fact, Dan has gone on the record and said that these exercises are more important in one's daily routine than hand form.

Three questions for you:
(1) Are these forms unique to Taiji? (My understanding is that they are not in fact part of any Taiji syllabus outside CTH's art, and may have been an external adjunct as they are also practiced in other CEMA.)
(2) How highly do you, personally, rate these neigong exercises?
(3) And do you agree with Dan that they are more important than "orthodox" Taiji training (eg hand form)?

[liokault]

Wayne:

SNIP
What did u want me to elaborate on
SNIP

Dan seems to be of the opinion that the real "key" to the Cheng Tin-hung system, both in terms of health acquisition and power development, are the 24 yin-yang neigong exercises, which are kept pretty tight in Practical Taiji International.

In fact, Dan has gone on the record and said that these exercises are more important in one's daily routine than hand form.

Three questions for you:
(1) Are these forms unique to Taiji? (My understanding is that they are not in fact part of any Taiji syllabus outside CTH's art, and may have been an external adjunct as they are also practiced in other CEMA.)
(2) How highly do you, personally, rate these neigong exercises?
(3) And do you agree with Dan that they are more important than "orthodox" Taiji training (eg hand form)?

I have done the 24 neigong. In regard to point 1, I have seen a CLF group doing one of the key exercises.

[wayne hansen]

I think they are a great set of exercises
I also learnt them from two teachers from the tan mon hung lineage
Tan was a student of Chen wing kwong cth ,s uncle
One of the teachers who taught me them didn't place great emphasis on the whole set
His name was he tow tan and at 76 he could do 20 one leg squats and touch the ground with his but on each leg while smiling
I have learnt moves within the set in other systems
If you look at the tien kan you will see similar exercises,I chuan has some
My main teacher dosent do any exercises he says it is all in the form
I give my students who have the bulk of my system a choice in what they practice
And most choose not to practice them prefering grand master chocks chi gung and the tien kan

[allen2saint]

Wayne, thanks very much for the detailed response.

Is any of this in a book or video somewhere or is this all person to person teaching?

[wayne hansen]

If you are talking about the 24 I know there are videos
I have seen a couple from hk
Earl montigues filmed rocky kwong doing them but I am not sure if he published them
All my learning was hand to hand

[allen2saint]

Thanks. I will keep looking.

[yeniseri]

Wayne, looking at the form, I think some of the health aspects are obvious, in terms of stretching the body, but there were some other things about the internal organs, like the lungs and heart, and stimulating circulation with the raising of the arms, that kind of thing, that I have not been exposed to as part of the form. I wondered if you could elaborate on that or point toward a documented source that covers those things, if possible?

My personal and objective view only. No animals were harmed in the writing of these statements.
1. There does not exist a standardized 'neigong' set of routinse that students were taught so that makes it difficult to quantify. What do I mean? If you take 5 students who stated they learned x neigong routine from x master, you will never find anything close if they shared the same teacher/master. It just never happens so "standardization" as a tool of practice misses the mark.
It only happens in modern day circles (everyone does the Beijing 24 or 16 form the same way. It never fails!
2. When I do teach neigong related or am asked to comment, here is what I do.
a. I reference a modern form (post 1950's then compare to a pre-1950's expression, then I seek to define what I <imagine> I see.
b. Here is a reference to Li style (I do not do Li style)


When the form starts (li style link) it is like most others. As "yangsheng" routine, begin at hands at qihai for x seconds then start. That qishi beginning movement is part of how many pre 1950's form starts off then the 'lower basin" stooping (massaging lower Jiao by action then raising body as if pushing the heavens, which invigorates sanjiao system so you already have a 'mechanistic effect taking place at the same time. So there already exists a silk reeling component plus neigong type contextual movements within Li style. Compare to normal Yang "qishi" (beginning movement) the breadth of 'vigor' is limited meaning no exertive force so you see more going on in the former (Li style) when looking at both. Li style has more extend postures that raise hands obove the heart so you are adding a higher heart rate within the fist 30 seconds of form start. This is the type of stuff I look at.
c. Contrary to popular belief, there are some clever teachers who may have learned a folk routine in their village or from another style that may not have been popular so since no one has heard about it, one can say they got it from x when actually y originated it. Y may not have been popular or at best, an unknown but it works for the teacher.
d. You seem to have some insight but it is more than "internal". Physical movement done in an 'innovative manner can have effects beyond just the element of flexion, extension, adduction and abduction!

[allen2saint]

Yeniseri, Thanks. I can adjust my form, which is a hodge podge of CMC and Wu, accordingly. I appreciate this.

Could you elaborate on d a little? If that's possible? I believe you're saying that, let's say, a calisthenics routine of stretches, movements, etc would not be equivalent to what is possible with Tai Chi, if the neigong elements are good right?

[Niall Keane]

http://www.intelligentboxing.com/nei-kung/

re the importance of Nei Gung, abandoning the esoteric for a moment.... holding postures from 1-10 minutes and repeating full body coordinated martial movement 41-360 times each, is going to have better and faster results than daily routines like forms where the single whip is practiced less than 20 times in total. Commonsense!

I've also seen similar excercises in other TCC styles, they are usually considered inside the door methods. Sometimes they are practiced with high stances and done with minimal movement as opposed to deep stances and full range of motion, I think there is enough sports science today to suggest which method is more beneficial?

The trouble with TCC and its leaning on Chinese Confusian culture is that the most revered masters amongst the plebs are the 100 year olds, and they sure dont move now like they did in their prime, when healthy young people aspiring to be fighters ape the exact "perfect" movement of a frail old man..... well, its not long until they start hopping around from a slight touch!

Conversely the first time I learned Nei Gung excercises from Dan Docherty, I recall within the first cople of minutes my mind became perfectly focused on one thing... "Oh fcuk!, Oh christ! whens he going to let us change posture, my legs are going to collapse! oh fcuk! my legs!!!! They are fcukin shaking!!! WTF!!! I'm going to die on my feet!!! now I know what it means.... Oh fcuk...my fcukin legs !!!....... the pain!!! THE FCUKIN PAINNNNN!!! ......"

Along with 2 minute handstands on fists, 80 rolls X 3, 20 minute rolling thunder punches 180 per minute with 2kg weights, and other monotonously painful excercises they straight away develop intent at its basic most fundamental level - the fighter's "heart"! I find they are excellent for truely transforming students in to useful martial artists, and the great thing is they keep offering more and more lessons and skills the more you practice.


Practice the 12 yin nei gung for 100 days and breath and movement will be unified in all your movements, your body will be able to receive force and deal with it instantly - you can take the jump test . Practice the 24 Yin and Yang Nei Gung for 1000 days and the intent and movement will be fused, you cannot excape knowing your limits and potential of movement, you will know instatly how to counter and recover WITH power. Chin Na will be everywhere as twists and rotation will be integral to your every movement. Training properly, you cannot escape this result! After that the more you practice and the more experience with opponents the more you instantly understand your opponents potential and limits, even from his posture, you automatically take in all your immediate envirnoment having developed and trained peripheral vision to keep your and your opponents seven stars and your envirnoment in constant awareness. i.e. "embracing the one / unity" At this level the typical opponent starts thinking you are using magic...

Can people arrive at this level of skill through other methods? Of course, there are many paths, but I never met or heard of anyone doing so through handform! Its not esoteric, its basic commonsense, the more you practice the better you will be. having a daily routine of thousands of repititions of your most common martial movements, reinforcing your self awareness of limits and potential, traininig and syncronising rotations and twists, folds and expansions, gathering and issuing simply put, will work!