Boxers: inner muscle development

[neijia_boxer]

i'd like to chime in since i have been experimenting with the material in the book, and i have boxing trainers on both sided of the spectrum. My old school style coach would agree with the light weights and helping improve your fighting skills since they are complementary to boxing and has a positive impact on my sparring. another coach of mine is a fitness and crossfit instructor and former pro boxer, and i'd say that his strength conditioning style it too much for me and detrimental (I'm age 40 now) to my body and makes me stiff for days, it is not helping my boxing, making me have stiff hips, (lower back pain) tight shoulders and arms. You dont get the relaxed snap of the jab from over worked muscles. Same with kicks in chinese martial arts, do a bunch of deadlifts and squats and your kicks are gonna slow down.

[liokault]

i'd like to chime in since i have been experimenting with the material in the book, and i have boxing trainers on both sided of the spectrum. My old school style coach would agree with the light weights and helping improve your fighting skills since they are complementary to boxing and has a positive impact on my sparring. another coach of mine is a fitness and crossfit instructor and former pro boxer, and i'd say that his strength conditioning style it too much for me and detrimental (I'm age 40 now) to my body and makes me stiff for days, it is not helping my boxing, making me have stiff hips, (lower back pain) tight shoulders and arms. You dont get the relaxed snap of the jab from over worked muscles. Same with kicks in chinese martial arts, do a bunch of deadlifts and squats and your kicks are gonna slow down.

But again, I agree entirely with not doing heavy weights. What i'm looking for are the specific pro's given by this light weight training.

My point is not "why is heavy lifting bad", its "why is high rep light weights " good.

[neijia_boxer]

But again, I agree entirely with not doing heavy weights. What i'm looking for are the specific pro's given by this light weight training.

My point is not "why is heavy lifting bad", its "why is high rep light weights " good.

I don't have enough scientific knowledge on it but I'd say light reps are good because it stimulates and activates the fast twitch and slow twitch muscles fibers used in fighting as well as the tendons without damaging and ripping them the way heavy weightlifting does.

[I am...]

Why not just try it for yourself if you are curious? I find it extremely valuable, and have trained for years using plyometrics, tabata's (real tabata's are generally executed at fast speed), explosive negatives, etc. This type of training improves your control over your muscles and how clearly defined the nerve impulse sent to them is (for lack of a better way to describe it). I can't really imagine a fighter NOT seeing the value in that.

[DeusTrismegistus]

But you are not talking functionality, you’re talking comparisons based on cosmetics.

I don't buy into heavy lifting improving punching power (hell, I don't even think push ups do much), but what do your light weights actually do? What attributes are you improving? What gains would you see if you did the training in your book, and why? What is there in the body addapting to lifting light weights that is beneficial to your fight game?

My big mental block on this (and why I don’t like push ups) is that I'm a great believer in training high reps is fundamentally just working your slow twitch muscle, which isn’t what you want to rely on for punching.

I was reading an interview by a boxing coach in an MMA gym a while back (wish I'd kelp it). His theory was that lots of young fighters come in, start early in their career with lots of KO's, they get bogged down in conventional high rep boxing training, lots of push ups etc etc and train themselves out of 'KO' power by developing a reliance on slow twitch muscle.

Read the book. I just finished it and it makes perfect sense as to how it would help a martial artist or boxer. The main reason would be neurological conditioning to be able to control and tense the appropriate muscles at the appropriate times. Basically increased proprioception and control over the muscular system while simultaneously increasing strength.

[tsurugi]

Read the book. I just finished it and it makes perfect sense as to how it would help a martial artist or boxer. The main reason would be neurological conditioning to be able to control and tense the appropriate muscles at the appropriate times. Basically increased proprioception and control over the muscular system while simultaneously increasing strength.

exactly - and in a nutshell.

you don't even have to read the whole book - just read the segment included on the link to neijiaboxers blog which should explain it clearly.

also it's not really about high reps at all - the push ups, squats etc... are actually quite low rep for those exercises and some of the dumbbell movements use only 10 - 20 "reps".

Also I think you're missing the point with the comment about comparisons being based purely on cosmetics - the comparisons were based on functionality - calzaghe body could perform better re the requirements of on point counterpunching than could Lacy's, Dempsey could punch very hard, Bradley couldn't...the first two look a certain way, the second two look a certain way...the "cosmetics" are indicative of and directly result from the type of conditioning each has undergone.

[Dubster]

Anyone else following this routine?

I've been doing it for about 10 days (skipped a few days with work) & think I have got the gist of it. I feel strong & think I am definitely going to stick with it. The mrs is digging the guns too

Thanks Dave

[zenshiite]

I just boughr the book and am reading the WATCH protocol section. I'm anxious to see how this will work with Convict Conditioning. Sandow is referenced in that book in relation to calisthenics.

[DeusTrismegistus]

I plan on following this program starting in a month or two. I am going to keep close track of my progress too.

[Patrick]

Definitely works, only complaint I have is the chest seems neglected

[Dubster]

I am not sure it 'neglects' the chest, but Dave can probably address that. I think it targets the muscles that are important for power & think I got (am getting) a better feel for the muscles targeted in each exercise now i have been doing it a while, yesterday my deltoids just gave up! I have definitely noticed a change across my shoulder girdle and also finding it is helping a few nagging injuries that normally hurt if I train daily. I am working on doing the sun salutation in the morning & 'watch' in the evening & really enjoying it.

I am not sure if it right to listen to music but I have been using Mr Scruff's Pickled Spiders for the pace & cadence for each exercise:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Z8p7sHkz3I

Or on soundcloud:
http://soundcloud.com/mr-scruff/mr-scru ... d-spider-1

(not quite sure why it's important to share this with you guys )

Happy training.

[tsurugi]

Dubster wrote:

I've been doing it for about 10 days (skipped a few days with work) & think I have got the gist of it. I feel strong & think I am definitely going to stick with it. The mrs is digging the guns too

Great to hear people are trying the routine out and getting results!

I got (am getting) a better feel for the muscles targeted in each exercise now i have been doing it a while, yesterday my deltoids just gave up! I have definitely noticed a change across my shoulder girdle and also finding it is helping a few nagging injuries that normally hurt if I train daily. I am working on doing the sun salutation in the morning & 'watch' in the evening & really enjoying it.

sounds like you're well on the right track - I noticed the shoulder girdle and arms responding first - and surprisingly quickly. You almost think "is is it just me or is this working already?" - good to have the Mrs confirm you aren't imagining it! Whichever muscle or muscle group responds best for you (deltoids maybe in your case) you will find that you can really induce the ideal effect in them. Once you've "felt it" there and you know what you're aiming for you can work towards inducing that exact same feeling in every area. Eventually you can get your spinal erectors or your obliques to give up in exactly the same way.


Paranoid android wrote:

Definitely works, only complaint I have is the chest seems neglected

It's a fair point - from the modern strength training, conditioning and bodybuilding perspectives there's not much that directly hits the pectoral muscles and from those perspectives it might seem that the chest had been forgotten about. Actually, it's not an omission so much as one of the main ways in which this approach purposely differs from the modern one.

The exercises were designed to (in a functional sense) perfectly develop, strengthen and balance every muscle of the body, and "bring them to perfect condition and under the perfect control of the will" - and (in an aesthetic sense) bring about "a perfect and pleasing development approaching the ideals depicted in classic sculpture" (Professor Attila's words)

Thing is, what was regarded as a perfectly functionally developed body then differs from the popular image we have of that today and also the popular image of a strong muscular bloke today differs markedly from the bodies depicted in Greek statuary:


if you google "chest muscles" you get loads of images like this -



whereas classically they looked more like this:



and all the oldtime strongmen and the three boxers referenced in the book sport those same flat but defined chests:





indeed most modern weight trainers would say Sandow's chest above was underdeveloped compared to the rest of him, while if oldtime strongmen saw pictures of modern bodybuilders or anyone who bench presses heavy and regularly they would wonder why all these men had so massively overdeveloped their chests in relation to everything else.

Strength was thought to originate in the large muscles of the core and be transmitted to the limbs by the powerful muscles of the back and "loins" - what we now call the muscles and fascia of the "back line".

A couple of the old book use the example of a tiger - whose big muscles are concentrated all along it's back and powerful shoulders while it's front is smaller and softer and Attila mentioned the natural strong build of the gorilla - compare a gorrilla's musculature to Sandows -





compared to the guy at the top they both have small flat chests - but both ludicrously strong.

That said - Paranoid android if you want to hit the chest more I'd alternate sets of the "floor dips" with one set concentrating on the back, serratus anterior etc... then the next concentrating tension on the chest - just make sure that in doing so you don't allow the serratus to switch off and the shoulder blades to wing out or round the shoulders too much. Also once you get really good at controlling and contracting each muscle maximally you can use the first shoulder exercise to directly target the pectorals strongly on the return, inward, movement.
- hope that helps

Dave

[Patrick]

That said - Paranoid android if you want to hit the chest more I'd alternate sets of the "floor dips" with one set concentrating on the back, serratus anterior etc... then the next concentrating tension on the chest - just make sure that in doing so you don't allow the serratus to switch off and the shoulder blades to wing out or round the shoulders too much. Also once you get really good at controlling and contracting each muscle maximally you can use the first shoulder exercise to directly target the pectorals strongly on the return, inward, movement.

Thanks for your input dave, appreciated.

[everything]

Dave, downloaded Kindle book today. Thanks and well done. As an IMA guy I understand the mind body point, but a couple of questions for you:

1. Cosmetics. Props for posing yourself. Looking good. I am around the same age so happy to look forward to good results. You say your diet was the same. Any different "cardio"? I assume you were fit already and just added the routine?

2. Function. did you notice any difference in whole body movements such as throws, etc.?

[Dubster]

sounds like you're well on the right track - I noticed the shoulder girdle and arms responding first - and surprisingly quickly. You almost think "is is it just me or is this working already?" - good to have the Mrs confirm you aren't imagining it! Whichever muscle or muscle group responds best for you (deltoids maybe in your case) you will find that you can really induce the ideal effect in them. Once you've "felt it" there and you know what you're aiming for you can work towards inducing that exact same feeling in every area. Eventually you can get your spinal erectors or your obliques to give up in exactly the same way.

That's good to note. I found some exercises much easier than others - I could feel most of the 'back' ones but struggle with the legs. I found the first exercise the 'hardest' at first, as I noticed I tense across the shoulders & couldn't isolate the bicep. I think this is because I have mostly trained kettlebells. After this week, I can feel the ache in my bicep very clearly which has really helped me improve that drill and there has been quite a rapid reduction in the reps I can do.

Cheers

D