Mian Quan Cotton Boxing

[Coiled_Spring]

Anyone has any information about this style? Seems like a very interesting internal martial arts style.

http://cn.doubledragonalliance.com/inde ... 29&lang=en

The guy has some huge muscles.

If I remember correctly, Yang's Taichiquan was also initially called Cotton boxing? Are they related?

[I-mon]

The only stuff I've seen comes from a guy in Sydney (Yang Zhen Hua) who's developed his own system out of his family's Mian Quan. He's a slick marketer, but teaches some damn fine martial arts. Website's at http://www.yangmian.com/

[Martin]

Interview: http://www.kung-fu.se/halsa/mian_quan.htm

[shawnsegler]

I saw one of Ven Fish's students perform some Cotton boxing the one time I visited him. Seemed very cool. Not sure if it's the same thing though. Maybe he'll pipe in.

S

[Andy_S]

SNIP
If I remember correctly, Yang's Taichiquan was also initially called Cotton boxing? Are they related?
SNIP

We had this discussion here a few years ago. The answer (from, IIRC, Ken Fish) was that no, there is no relation between today's Mianquan and Yang Lu-chan's Taijiquan. Which is a pity, as some of us were wondering if that deadly and secret art HAD indeed been preserved down the decades just under a different brand...

[D_Glenn]

I'd uploaded some Mian Quan application clips off a VCD ( http://www.plumpub.com/sales/vcd/coll_cotton.htm) -






fwiw- I first started looking into Mian Quan years ago because someone had mentioned it's theory and techniques as being the root system for what is Chen Taijiquan.


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[jonathan.bluestein]

It'll be pretty scary if it turns out the bodybuilder in the first link is actually capable of very rapid movement and refined technique. I've never seen a real martial artist who had this level of muscle mass. I'd really like to see a video of his. I previously thought it's impossible for someone to attain bodybuilding-level mass and still be a proficient martial artist (in terms of time you have to spend doing both, conflicting practices, etc), but this guy might prove me wrong.

[kenneth fish]

The Mianzhang shown in the videos is not the same as the Mianquan in the article linked in the first post. BTW I don't think that the gentleman in the pictures got his muscles from Mianquan practice.

The Mianquan of the article originated in Hunan province. Several very skilled teachers of the system (which is indeed very rare) have been in teaching in Shanghai since the 1980's. It looks nothing like Taiji. Mrs. Zhu Suyi, whom taught me Tongbei, XIngyi and Bagua also taught me a portion of the Mianquan system. Mianquan is a complete system, with equal emphasis on gang and rou, lots of coiling and power training. There were at least a dozen open hand forms. Very application oriented as well - Mrs. Zhu showed me a short knife (like a dagger) set and applications that were genuinely frightening.

Mrs. Zhu also used to say that Chen taiji was based on Mianquan, but I would tend to doubt that. The use of force, and the movements in general, don't seem all that similar. In the late 1950's and early 1960's Mrs. Zhu was assisting Chen Panling teaching Taiji - a number of Chen Panling's students still practice the basic Mianquan exercises.

[JWang]

It'll be pretty scary if it turns out the bodybuilder in the first link is actually capable of very rapid movement and refined technique. I've never seen a real martial artist who had this level of muscle mass. I'd really like to see a video of his. I previously thought it's impossible for someone to attain bodybuilding-level mass and still be a proficient martial artist (in terms of time you have to spend doing both, conflicting practices, etc), but this guy might prove me wrong.

Found this on tudou.

http://www.tudou.com/programs/view/Vtc-lva91RA/

[jonathan.bluestein]

It'll be pretty scary if it turns out the bodybuilder in the first link is actually capable of very rapid movement and refined technique. I've never seen a real martial artist who had this level of muscle mass. I'd really like to see a video of his. I previously thought it's impossible for someone to attain bodybuilding-level mass and still be a proficient martial artist (in terms of time you have to spend doing both, conflicting practices, etc), but this guy might prove me wrong.

Found this on tudou.

http://www.tudou.com/programs/view/Vtc-lva91RA/

It's no Tyson, but still very impressive for his size, and even compared to much smaller martial artists. I haven't seen people that big move that fast before. The 18 inch plus biceps alone make it very hard to perform lots of TCMA movement. It's a shame he isn't, say, 15-20kg leaner, since then he'd still be very large, but also much quicker I suppose. But actually... who'd mess with that giant anyway? ^_^

[kenneth fish]

Jonathon:

FWIW, my first Xingyi teacher, Master Zhang Junfeng, was very tall, broad and muscular - and he could move very quickly. Wang Fengting, a wrestler in Taibei, was very muscular even late in life, and could move like a cat. My comment about the muscle development on this gent is that it does not appear to be the kind of development one would see on a wrestler or boxer or CMA person who did a lot of weight and strength training - it looks like body builder type development. Still, one should not assume that someone with that kind of development cannot move quickly or explosively.

[Dmitri]

I haven't seen people that big move that fast before.

Hmm, didn't seem like anything too-amazingly-fast to me... More of a frame rate of the film than anything IMHO. I've seen "big-muscled" people move a LOT faster than that. (Not to take anything away from this guy's movement...)

But actually... who'd mess with that giant anyway? ^_^

Some people do... Here's one, with a guy 100 lbs lighter taking on a huge-muscled wrestler in a NHB setting. (Not quite TCMA though... )

[D_Glenn]

The Mianzhang shown in the videos is not the same as the Mianquan in the article linked in the first post.
The Mianquan of the article originated in Hunan province.

Thanks for the info.

The videos I posted are actually Mian Zhang Quan a.k.a. Duan Quan; which kind of does kind of look like Taijiquan:

From http://www.satirio.com/ma/duanquan/intro.html --

Practiced for centuries but extremely rare today, Duan (Short) Quan (Boxing), is also known as MianZhangquan or Mianzhang Duanda (Cotton Palm Short Strikes). It is a combat orientated method from the Northern Hebei Province of China and is characterized by short simple sequences/routines and skillful close and long range approaches. The style originated in the Ming Dynasty and was developed in the Qing Dynasty.

Duanquan is the indigenous art of Gaoyang county in Hebei province and was practiced in the past by many families such as Yu, Zhou and Zhang in the county. Today the skill has reached the 9th and 10th generation since the founder that passed the skill to the Gaoyang county.

The key principles of Duanquan are found on the basis of close in range powerful strikes and that the hands and body move unison where required.

Introduction

The earliest records of Duanquan [Short Boxing] date back to the Ming Dynasty (1368 AD to 1644 AD)when in the classic text "Jixiao Xinshu" thought to be around 1560 AD by General Qi Jiguang, lists MianZhang's Duanda as one of the most effective. Qi Jiguang is therefore often acknowledged as the founder and as a result the style is sometimes known as Qi Jiguang Quan in addition to Mianzhang Duanda and Duanquan. In the Qing Dynasty Emperor QianLong Period（1735-1796), the art was passed on in Gao Yang County, Hebei Province and became known as Mian Zhang Quan, thereafter the styles name was simplified to Duan quan.　

Duanquan is a comprehensive martial art that includes weapons in addition to empty hand combat. It is one of the traditional styles practised in Gao Yang County, Bao Ding City and Cangzhou areas. Duanquan was historically considered to contain 12 or 16 sequences. Presently however in most lineages, only 8 sequences are practised, their contents are comprehensive and varied. In addition there are many weapons routines. Currently in Gao Yang County, those that can practise all of the 8 sequences are but a minor few.

Transmission to Gaoyang Village

The art was passed in the Qing dynasty by a Master Su Feng from Jiang Su Province. It is said that around 1750, a wanderer (Su Feng) had stopped at an inn during sunset. Whilst having dinner he observed some people practising martial arts, without cause he approached them and asked “The boxing your practising is it useful/effective”, the leader of the group exclaimed “of course it is, if you don’t believe it why don’t you try”. At that instant the insulted leader attacked Master Su, then without a very discreet and gentle “Zhang Peng” duanquan movement broke the attack. After continuous attacks the leader of the group failed and bowed down requesting to be accepted as a student. Master Su refused and retired to his quarters for the evening. On the next morning, early in the morning 15 students including those of the previous day were kneeling outside the inn and pleaded with Master Su to be accepted as disciples. After observing the humble nature of the village he decided to stay and impart his knowledge to villagers of Gao Yang.

In the first few days the teacher requested students to practise Zhan Dong (Standing exercise or Zhanzhuang) which is an arduous practice of holding posture for long periods of time (often hours). Only after successful completion of this requirement did Master Su Feng impart to them the Mian Zhang Duan Da skills.

For generations the art remained in the hands of a few families (mainly Zhang, Yu and Zhou) in Gao Yang counties. Just as Master Su was selective in whom he taught, the latter generations also respected this methodology. This same approach ensured only the correct inheritors were passed the skill but also ended up impacting the prolongation and popularity of the method. Master Yu Xuelang and Yu Zhangwen were famous exponents of the Yu Style of Duanquan and passed the skill to their family and disciples.

Principles

Duanquan specialises in combining the whole bodies power into a central path, in this requirement the energy required to release power is considered internal in nature, it is also characterised by its tight horse stance that is narrower than most common arts. Though named duanquan (Short Boxing), it is common that Changquan is not long and duanquan is not short.

The Style functions at all angles and distances, however due to its striking methodology maximum power is reached as short contact, for this purpose the style is also capable of entering large distances at ease by its footwork. An old couplet “San Cun Bu Jie, Qi Cun bu Da” [Three inches cannot be deflected, seven inches cannot strike] depicts the concept of Duanquan as for to ensure effectiveness of attack a strike must be within three inches of its target ideally and no further than seven. Mainly so that the power in the strike is real and sufficient to pass through rather than merely reach.

The key methods and strategies follow the simple five unique points:

* Duan (Short)
* Kuai (Fast)
* Bian (Change)
* Quan (Circle)
* Bo (Thunder)

Duan is the frame under which the style functions, short yet efficient and practical with no flowery movements. Kuai,is the speed of each technique, note that the techniques are not interlinked quickly but each movement is accelerated. It is said that as fast as a spirit. It is also said “Jiao Sui Shou Chi, Shou Sui Jiao Luo” (Leg follows, hands rise: hands follow legs drop). Bian requires fast nimble balanced changes of technique, angulation and movement. Quan, is that in each movement small circles exist and it is in this way that power can be executed. This is also a way of silk reeling power. Bo, refers to the harmony of both hard and soft. So that all power can be released as one unrelentless. “Jin Duan Li Meng” ( Power is short strength is fierce ).

Fundamentals

The stepping and footwork is unique in Duanquan, since the stances are fairly short therefore we spend a significant time on developing the basic strength and skills required. Some of these fundamentals are noted below:

Zhan Dang (站档，Standing Exercises)

* Zheng Dang (Straight Stance)
* Xie Dang (Angled Stance)

Jiben Fa (基本法， Basic Methods)
Duanquan favors mastery of techniques and focuses on application to combat thus the early stages are dedicated to such practice. With over 18 key techniques forming the basis of which some are noted below:

* San Tang Chui (3 Sequential Strikes)
* Si Chui (Tear apart strike)
* Zhi Chui (straight Strike)
* Bao Huan Beng Da (Embracing Crushing Strike)
* Bao Huan Kai Da (Embracing Opening Strike)
* Za Chui (Hammer Strike)
* Diao Shou (Diao Hands)
* Pi Zhang (Splitting Palm)
* Ti Zhou (Lifted Elbow)
* Cun Tui (Inch Kick)
* Tiao Ti (Lifting Kick)
* Zong Da (Vertical Strike)

Tangzi (趟子, Empty Hands Sets)

In Duanquan, the sets are very short and repetitive as the intention is to introduce further techniques and methods. Thus each new set althoguh short includes completely new techniques compared to the previous one. We only practice 12 sets (some records suggest 16 had existed). Duanquan is considered almost an extinct art and most practitioners have practiced other martial arts thereby contributing to its dilution. Its methods however remain unique and effective thereby necessary for their preservation.

* Mian Sha Zhang (Cotton Sand Palms)
* Sui Shou (Following Hands)
* Pi Xin Zhang (Splitting the Heart Palms)
* Yu Huan Bu (Jade Step Fist)
* Li Wai Fa (Inside and Outside Releasing)
* Yuan Yang Zhang (Yuan Yang Palms)
* Kai Tian Pi Di ( Open heaven split the earth)
* Ba Gua Quan (8 Trigrams Fist)
* Tie Kao Zhang (Press in Closing Palms)
* Nien Lan Pa Da (Adhering and Smashing Strikes)
* Shan Kao Zhang (Mountain Leaning Palms)
* Tian Di Huan Fa (Heaven and Earth Changing Methods)

Qiexie (器械, Weapons)

The weapons techniques of Duanquan follow many of its principles - technique and body methods , as well as the relatively shortness of the sets.

Qun Qiou Da Dao (Spring Autumn Long Handled Broadsword)
Shi San Da Qiang (Long Spear)
Shuang Dao Tiao Ba Gua (Double Broadswords Jumping 8 Trigrams)
Hu Shou Shuang Gou (Guarding Hands Double Hook Swords)
Cai Hong Jian (Rainbow Sword)
Fo Chen (Religious Whisk)
Shuang Bi Shou(Double Daggers)
Pu Dao (Long Handled Chopping Broadsword)
Dan Dao (Single Broadsword)
Shuang Dao (Double Broadsword)
Qun Yang Gun (Shepherd's Staff)
Liu He Qiang (6 Co-ordinations Spear
Pi Shou Gan zi Dui Lian (Axe Hand stick 2-man set
Er Lang Gun Dui Lian ( Er Lang Pole 2-man set)

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[jonathan.bluestein]

Jonathon:

FWIW, my first Xingyi teacher, Master Zhang Junfeng, was very tall, broad and muscular - and he could move very quickly. Wang Fengting, a wrestler in Taibei, was very muscular even late in life, and could move like a cat. My comment about the muscle development on this gent is that it does not appear to be the kind of development one would see on a wrestler or boxer or CMA person who did a lot of weight and strength training - it looks like body builder type development. Still, one should not assume that someone with that kind of development cannot move quickly or explosively.

Yeah, sure. I also meant that his muscular development must have came from BB training. That was my point, actually - to become that muscular through BB training (and I mean pro-BB training, not the recreational once-a-week-at-the-gym) you have to train in a fashion that's contradictory to many MA methods and what they try to achieve. Other issues include the very important need for lots of rest between BB workouts (which conflicts with many hours doing MA), and the time it takes to train the two disciplines in parallel. So while I'd consider weight training in general to be beneficial to most martial artists, I wouldn't say so of bodybuilding, which is about taking weight training as your main thing rather than using it as a supplementary method.
If a person became muscular through a combination of good genetics and MA training methods, he will become fast indeed. However, BB training, while not necessarily hindering flexibility, does hinder the level of mobility in many TMA-related movements because of the sheer body-size. The person in these video, for instance, would have to dramatically alter the structure of Xing Yi had he wished to practice it, because with his mass movements (as in my lineage) like in Heng Quan, Shi Xing, low Long Xing, Tiao Dze Gong, Yao Xing, Tuo Xing, Ji Xing, etc would be very difficult or even impossible to perform "correctly". It has a lot to do with muscle/fat ratios, as fat is more easily "squashed" and "gives way" than solid muscle - you can Heng or Beng while pressing through a fat belly to some extent, but you cannot relax a huge bicep in the same fashion. There are also all sorts of other issues, like with structure - a bodybuilder looks for a "tight" structure, while in TCMA you often work to stretch the fascia and ligaments that the BB would want to keep tight and "secure" - like the dantian area...

As for the guy's speed (answering others who've commented) - sure it ain't the fastest thing I've seen, but take other people who've gone through extensive periods of BB training, and I doubt you'll find among them people who can move that fast with MA related movements.

[KEND]

I have limited knowledge of the style, having been shown the form and gone over some of the moves with Ken Fish. My question is where did the 'cotton' come from? Is it associated with the 'soft' aspect of the power, maybe the silk or cotton reeling nature of the art. What differentiates it from other styles?