Progressively learning to develop power

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Progressively learning to develop power

Postby D_Glenn on Sun Jul 17, 2011 1:12 pm

Found this quote in the article Ian posted from: http://www.morrisnoholdsbarred.co.uk/pedigree.html

China

As part of my trip to China an interview had been arranged with the leading boxing masters of Fuzhou City, Fujian who represented the systems of the Dragon, Lion, Tiger, Crane, Dog, Rooster, Lohan and Five Ancestor Fist. Whilst their demonstration of form was not particularly revealing (I had seen much of it before, and far better, by way of Yap Leung and his master Yap Ching-Hai), what they had to say with regards to Okinawan karate was extremely revealing—and they were in a good position to judge as they had acted as hosts on numerous occasions to those of Okinawa, Japan and the West who had travelled to Fuzhou in search of their roots. Whilst the masters didn't dispute the historical evidence of the martial art connections between Okinawa and Fujian dating back to the early 14th Century, what they did dispute was the claim that there was any similarity, other than a superficial one, between their respective practices. The Okinawan systems, according to Li Yi Duan, then Vice Chairman of the Fuzhou Martial Arts Association, lacked in what he termed 'essentials.' So as to clarify this statement, I asked the masters what they thought about the way the fundamental form of Sanchin (which embodies those three internal and external essentials of Fujian Boxing) was practiced on the island of Okinawa, and they just laughed. When I asked them what they thought about the way the form is practiced in Japan they laughed even more; some of them had to wipe away the tears. Because of the age of some of the masters I didn't dare ask them what they thought about the way the form is practiced in the West as I didn't want to be responsible for giving any of them a coronary. However, Yap's observation of a 'Western master' attempting to perform 'shaking' energy within a Fujian form might help: he said 'he just wobbled.' ~



There's some Basic ways of looking at Force in the Chinese Martial Systems. Which also represent a natural progression or order that they're learned in so that one fully develops the skills.

1. 衝擊力 Chōng​jī​ Lì (Impact or Thrusting Force) a.k.a. 撞擊力 Zhuàng​jī Li (Hitting; Colliding Force) is the standard way that all the worlds martial artists punch and strike. It's like hitting a nail with a hammer. When we speak of Forces or adding in forces this is the 1st force. This is the initial contact of fist to body.

2. 螺旋力 Luoxuan Li (Spiraling; Drilling Force) or 自轉力 Zì​zhuàn Li (Rotating Force) is when one physically twists, drills, and rotates the fist, bones of the forearm, and shoulder as the strike is landing or the arm is bridging.

3. 發力 'Fa Li' is another mechanical movement or 'force' that can be done in addition to the 衝擊力 Chōng​jī​ Lì force and adds in a 2nd movement and a following force to the initial strike. This is done through a quick movement of the spine, coordinated with the movement of the arms and legs. Storing up (蓄 xù) then releasing (發 fa) and the secondary force travels out through the arms. There's a term in Chinese Arts called the 五弓 Wu Gong (5 Bows -as in 'bow & arrow') meaning the 1- spinal column, 2&3 - the two arms, 4&5 - the two legs. The movements in the CMAs are said to start at the 'root and not the tip' - the root of the arm is the shoulder, the root of the leg is the hip, and the root of the spine is the tailbone or sacrum and tucking the tailbone under with a fast quick movement is how we 發力 Fa Li / 發勁 Fa jin, which is also called 波浪勁 Bo Lang Jin (Wave Power a.k.a. Spinal Wave).

Learning to 發力 'Fa Li' is a precursor to learning the following 2 Forces:

4. 爆破力 Baopo Li (Exploding Force) a.k.a. 寸力 Cùn Li​ (Inch Force) is the ability to generate force in a very short space. After one first learns to 'Fa Li' with the spine then they can begin to learn this force where you need to store up (蓄 xù) very quickly and efficiently, or rather the storing up part needs to also be done within a short or confined space and then release the force (發 fa) in an equally as quick manner, like a quick pulse rather than a wave, and this could be a short movement or long movement of the arm with the quick pulse at the end.

and

5. 振動力 - Zhen Dongli (Shocking Force) a.k.a. 抖勁 dǒujìn​ (tremble; shaking energy). This is quick sudden variations in the 肌肉 jī​ròu (muscles and flesh) and a shifting between 鬆 sōng (relaxation) and 緊 jǐn (tension). The goal of this force is that it 透勁 tòujìn​ (penetrates; passes through) and into the internal organs of the opponent, damaging them. It's also used in quick succession to take the slack out of the opponent's limbs and joints and thereby being able to affect their spinal column and whole body, primarily to aid in throwing but the shaking/shocking can itself cause soft tissue damage to the limbs and body, and even whiplash or injure the neck. This power and force that comes from the 發力 'Fa Li' and movement of the spine and the movement of the of the Dantian, which when moved it's force is somewhat 'omnidirectional', or expanding outward in all directions, so a good portion of the power is also going down to the foot and this is the reason for the rule of "The hand and foot arriving at the same time." or timing the landing of the foot with the hand hitting the opponent so that most of the force goes into the opponent. If the foot lands before the hand then most of the force is dissipated into the ground. We take advantage of this force traveling to the leg and the 振動力 - Zhen Dongli (Shocking Force) is actually a 3rd outgoing force into the opponent, arriving just after the 1st (衝擊力 Chōng​jī​ Lì) and the 2nd (發力 'Fa Li' ). So this 振 Zhèn (Shocking force) comes from using some of our Intent (意 'Yi') to 發 'Fa' into the feet while the upper body is relaxed and then a delayed force comes back up from the ground and adds in a 3rd dispersive or explosive force to the initial strike.


***

Like in the quote from Morris', we still find it very comical to see people trying to do a 振動力 Zhen Dongli (Shaking Force) when they can't even properly 發力 'Fa Li' (Emit Force).

There's a saying that when we 'Zhen' (shock/shake) we want to shock the opponent's spinal column and they only way we can do this is by using our own spine. If you can only create a 'shock force' with just your arms, then the most you can hope to affect in the opponent is only his arms.


.
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Re: Progressively learning to develop power

Postby Daniel on Sun Jul 17, 2011 1:16 pm

Yes. You can of course build up some power fast, but the fast version will usually create problems down the line instead. One thing that doing Chinese traditions has given me is a framework for thinking in the long run, over a lifetime, both in health, training and becoming a human being.


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Re: Progressively learning to develop power

Postby jonathan.bluestein on Sun Jul 17, 2011 3:07 pm

Thanks very much, as usual, for the thorough explanation on this type of hit-classification.

In the past I've read criticism of Bai He practitioners who jump into the Dou Jin phase too early, which was said to carry a risk for internal organ/fascia/tendon injuries. Since Bai He lineages seem to have this quality to their movements from the very beginning, I was wondering if anyone knew how those among them that avoid injury manage to do so - how do they deal with the "problem", if there really is one?

On another note... Life is so strange and unexpected. Morris could've eventually found what he was looking for, if not for some fight-indecent that he details further down his biography. Maybe if that had not happened, he could've been a Bai He practitioner or something like that today instead of being heavily into NHB/MMA.
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Re: Progressively learning to develop power

Postby XinKuzi on Sun Jul 17, 2011 4:06 pm

Daniel wrote:Yes. You can of course build up some power fast, but the fast version will usually create problems down the line instead. One thing that doing Chinese traditions has given me is a framework for thinking in the long run, over a lifetime, both in health, training and becoming a human being.


Well put; this echoes my own experience and sentiments.

Speaking specifically of developing "power", I always try to tell my Sifu's new students to be patient and not to try and force the power out when they're just starting. The ones who can appreciate the bigger picture always progress faster, to my eyes.
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Re: Progressively learning to develop power

Postby charles on Sun Jul 17, 2011 5:59 pm

That's a good summary of the power mechanisms. Thanks for posting it.
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Re: Progressively learning to develop power

Postby C.J.W. on Sun Jul 17, 2011 6:08 pm

jonathan.bluestein wrote:On another note... Life is so strange and unexpected. Morris could've eventually found what he was looking for, if not for some fight-indecent that he details further down his biography. Maybe if that had not happened, he could've been a Bai He practitioner or something like that today instead of being heavily into NHB/MMA.



I think one caveat for gifted fighters like Morris is that because they are so good at fighting, they may end up dismissing teachers who actually have valuable knowledge to share but can't necessarily handle them in a real fight.
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Re: Progressively learning to develop power

Postby AllanF on Sun Jul 17, 2011 7:50 pm

C.J.W. wrote:
jonathan.bluestein wrote:On another note... Life is so strange and unexpected. Morris could've eventually found what he was looking for, if not for some fight-indecent that he details further down his biography. Maybe if that had not happened, he could've been a Bai He practitioner or something like that today instead of being heavily into NHB/MMA.



I think one caveat for gifted fighters like Morris is that because they are so good at fighting, they may end up dismissing teachers who actually have valuable knowledge to share but can't necessarily handle them in a real fight.


Excellent point.

And good OP D_Glenn.
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Re: Progressively learning to develop power

Postby Ian on Sun Jul 17, 2011 8:58 pm

very informative, thanks for posting.

however, I can do inch force / cun li without moving my spine, so how would you classify that?

my teacher punched me with this arm only inch force and it was one of the most convincing displays of power I've experienced.

far more devastating than that 'hold still while I pull your arm with both my hands and whiplash your neck' zhendong li demonstration you get so often in china.
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Re: Progressively learning to develop power

Postby D_Glenn on Sun Jul 17, 2011 10:19 pm

Ian, As I already wrote above, maybe you just missed that part, is that I guess we could say the real test of cun li is emitting a short force but inside of large, long, strikes. It's a bit more technical than just mechanically having a strike/punch travel a short distance with a lot of power. Anyone could do that if they have their weight behind it. The 1st force - 衝擊力 Chōng​jī​ Lì (Impact or Thrusting Force) could be long, medium, or short but it's still just a simple 'impact' or 'hammer hitting the nail of the head'.

Agreed though that lots of people learn to use the dou jin as just grabbing with both hands and jerking and shaking someone and that's kind of the point of the thread - that maybe that's not truly developed or maybe people aren't being completely honest with themselves or students don't know any better.

I can't say this is the quintessential example of 'zhen' as there are many different ways to use it and most are actually more damaging then this example but I think the test of one's ability is when could do this - say someone grabs my teacher's wrist with one hand, then he 'shock' strikes with such speed and power that he whiplashes their neck and drops them before their mind even thinks to let go with their hand.

***

In the past I've read criticism of Bai He practitioners who jump into the Dou Jin phase too early, which was said to carry a risk for internal organ/fascia/tendon injuries. Since Bai He lineages seem to have this quality to their movements from the very beginning, I was wondering if anyone knew how those among them that avoid injury manage to do so - how do they deal with the "problem", if there really is one?


There is possible problems which the classics state as being a liver problem but really it becomes a problem with the Gall Bladder and especially the gall bladder meridian particularly in the neck and head region. I think the answer to avoid this is of course - do ZZ everyday, follow it's basic rules, and naturally develop a strong dantian, but maybe of more importance and what really makes sense is learning it in the order listed, or first learn the 爆破力 Baopo Li (Exploding Force) a.k.a. 寸力 Cùn Li​ (Inch Force) before 'zhen' as it trains the body to 'store up' (蓄 xù) quickly and efficiently as one of the major problems with 'zhen' is that it's too dispersing and one doesn't bring everything back to the dantian and things get stuck and cause stagnations, especially around the neck and head area.


.
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Re: Progressively learning to develop power

Postby AllanF on Sun Jul 17, 2011 10:24 pm

D_Glenn wrote:I can't say this is the quintessential example of 'zhen' as there are many different ways to use it and most are actually more damaging then this example but I think the test of one's ability is when say someone grabs my teacher's wrist with one hand, then he 'shock' strikes with such speed and power that he whiplashes their neck and drops them before their mind even thinks to let go with their hand.


This sounds very like "Aiki age" in Daito ryu? Anyone care to comment?
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Re: Progressively learning to develop power

Postby Ian on Mon Jul 18, 2011 12:25 am

D_Glenn wrote:Ian, As I already wrote above, maybe you just missed that part, is that I guess we could say the real test of cun li is emitting a short force but inside of large, long, strikes. It's a bit more technical than just mechanically having a strike/punch travel a short distance with a lot of power. Anyone could do that if they have their weight behind it. The 1st force - 衝擊力 Chōng​jī​ Lì (Impact or Thrusting Force) could be long, medium, or short but it's still just a simple 'impact' or 'hammer hitting the nail of the head'.


you're right, I did miss that part. apologies.

the way we train to do it is:

-body first or arm first
-throwing bodyweight or throwing arm weight
-spine involved or no spine involved
-waist involved or waist not involved

often it looks like a jab but the pulse is only at the end of the strike, so it can change directions if blocked or checked and still deliver the same amount and type of force.

so if you're going arm first, throwing arm weight, not involving the spine or waist but getting the same effect as cun li, I guess it doesn't fit into the chinese paradigm of striking (correct me if I'm wrong)? which is fine as it might be a bit unrealistic to expect cmas to have all the answers.

this is not a critique :)
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Re: Progressively learning to develop power

Postby NoSword on Mon Jul 18, 2011 12:54 am

Using the weight of the arm alone without the assistance of the body is basically a form of internal disconnection. There are many such methods implied in Tongbei, which loves to play with connection and disconnection. I have also seen similar methods (albeit in a much more compact frame) in the "internal" WC I have seen. You can move a lot faster this way than you can using "spiralling," "ground power" etc., and it is astonishing how much pain can still be inflicted by people who practice and develop this skill.

Then again, neither of these arts are considered "pure" IMA, which typically (and IMO unrealistically) advocate head-to-toe connectivity at all times. (Although, judging from Glenn's posts, Yin style bagua does not necessarily advocate it either.)

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Re: Progressively learning to develop power

Postby Daniel on Mon Jul 18, 2011 1:07 am

I remember reading in the Bagua Journal about...I think it was Wang Shujin...who while training for one of his teachers trained for five hours at a time while not being allowed to do fali, just relaxing and building up that power.


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Re: Progressively learning to develop power

Postby NoSword on Mon Jul 18, 2011 1:09 am

No wonder he got so fat...like Chris said, it's like eating all day long without ever pooping...

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Re: Progressively learning to develop power

Postby Interloper on Mon Jul 18, 2011 7:51 am

AllanF wrote:
D_Glenn wrote:I can't say this is the quintessential example of 'zhen' as there are many different ways to use it and most are actually more damaging then this example but I think the test of one's ability is when say someone grabs my teacher's wrist with one hand, then he 'shock' strikes with such speed and power that he whiplashes their neck and drops them before their mind even thinks to let go with their hand.


This sounds very like "Aiki age" in Daito ryu? Anyone care to comment?


It does sound like that, doesn't it? It can certainly be done in that kind of pulsing, shocky way that causes whiplash. It can also bring the person up on his toes while he is whiplashed.
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