the rum soaked fist: internal martial arts forum

I usually do a 15/20 minute ZZ at the start of a training session. Then some ZZ to finish.
I have dropped one lot of ZZ added a 15/20 minute circle walking to my training as I want to improve my foot work.
Just curious as to what method people have found works well.

A) circle walk - forms - ZZ
B) ZZ - forms - circle walk
C) ZZ - circle walk - forms
D) circle walk - ZZ - forms

Note: I don't to Bagua forms -> just slow circle walking.

I'd alternate between option A) and option C)

I tend to like the ZZ after circle walking and forms and spend a significant time allowing energy to store in the tan tien.

From a Sun Style Baguaquan perspective, correct Circle Walking practice of 30 minutes or longer, in which individual postures are held for at least 5 minutes of walking to both the left and the right sides, is essentially the Bagua equivalent of Zhan Zhuang practice. It is simply done with active steps in both directions rather than from a stationary position only.

As a result, students are taught that sufficient Circle Walking practice, trained separately from the practice of solo form sets, eliminates the need to also practice stationary Zhan Zhuang at the same training session. To do both would be considered unnecessary and redundant!

First off 15/20 minutes is only a warmup, as it's around the 20 minute mark where things start really moving and it's not healthy for you to just stop at that point, you want to keep circling for at least 25 more minutes and then a good 5 minutes of cooling down, walking normal, hands at your sides around the circle so everything returns to normal.

Circle Walking is 'Xing Zhuang' / (Moving Still) which is externally moving but more important Internally moving. It's a very powerful 'Daoyin' (guiding and leading) practice and should only be done when you have no distractions and can devote the full amount of time without interruption.

Zhan Zhuang (standing still) is not as intense a 'Daoyin' as circle walking so you can do it for just 5 minutes or in short little sessions because internally your not really disrupting anyting. It's more of a physical exercise and imparts a deeper physical development then you could ever possibly achieve with just the 'Xing Zhuang'/ Circle walking so you can't truly replace it with just circle walking, they're not redundant from our viewpoint, both are important but if you only did standing and no turning then you may start to develop some stagnation so you do want some type of 'Xing Zhuang' practice to get everything moving, so we consider Circle Walking more important but if your limited on time then you can just do Standing instead, but ideally doing both is the best and will give you a complete development.

I practice at night so I do circle walking first, then forms and striking drills, then Standing practices to calm everything back down.

If practicing in the morning I would do ZZ first, then forms and strikes, then finish with circle walking.


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D_Glenn wrote:Zhan Zhuang (standing still) is not as intense a 'Daoyin' as circle walking
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I don't think I agree. Depends on what type of moving practice. If you walk real slowly emphasizing intent as in Shi Li, and standing as low as thighs parallel to the floor... Then, maybe.

Anyhow in my lineage the order of practice is always:
ZZ >> slow practice >> practice with Fa Jin
If you train every one of these in a single session, that's the order we do it in.

jonathan.bluestein wrote:

D_Glenn wrote:Zhan Zhuang (standing still) is not as intense a 'Daoyin' as circle walking
.

I don't think I agree. Depends on what type of moving practice. If you walk real slowly emphasizing intent as in Shi Li, and standing as low as thighs parallel to the floor... Then, maybe.

I wrote specifically the practice of circle walking and the actual 'daoyin' that naturally happens when you turn a 6' diameter circle or smaller, not the physical intensity of say muscle use or anything, physically, it's a little bit less than ZZ, (that is assuming one is doing their ZZ pretty much 'balls out', hardcore like we do and not just standing for the sake of standing.)

Also the specific things that happen in circle walking doesn't pertain to just any slow movement practice. So it does depend on what type of moving practice for sure.


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Doc Stier wrote:From a Sun Style Baguaquan perspective, correct Circle Walking practice of 30 minutes or longer, in which individual postures are held for at least 5 minutes of walking to both the left and the right sides, is essentially the Bagua equivalent of Zhan Zhuang practice. It is simply done with active steps in both directions rather than from a stationary position only.

As a result, students are taught that sufficient Circle Walking practice, trained separately from the practice of solo form sets, eliminates the need to also practice stationary Zhan Zhuang at the same training session. To do both would be considered unnecessary and redundant!

Very interesting - thanks for sharing

As a general rule to circle walking, should you aim for 30mins +
15/20mins is too short .....

chow_farn wrote:

Doc Stier wrote:From a Sun Style Baguaquan perspective, correct Circle Walking practice of 30 minutes or longer, in which individual postures are held for at least 5 minutes of walking to both the left and the right sides, is essentially the Bagua equivalent of Zhan Zhuang practice. It is simply done with active steps in both directions rather than from a stationary position only.

As a result, students are taught that sufficient Circle Walking practice, trained separately from the practice of solo form sets, eliminates the need to also practice stationary Zhan Zhuang at the same training session. To do both would be considered unnecessary and redundant!

Very interesting - thanks for sharing

As a general rule to circle walking, should you aim for 30mins +
15/20mins is too short .....

As I was taught, it takes most people at least 20 minutes to get both blood circulation and intrinsic energy circulation really opened up and moving at full capacity throughout the body. The greatest internal benefits to be gained from the circle walking come from training past this point.

So, a 30 minute training session will initially be more beneficial externally than internally for over half that time period, with equal and greater internal benefits coming mostly during the last 10 minutes and beyond. Past the 30 minute mark, the internal aspects become increasingly more dynamic. This is how serious practitioners gradually get sucked into longer and longer practice sessions over time.

Thanks again, nice & clear.

so
puttin` it all together:
as usual,
be natural, start from slo to fast and revers order to cool down

I've only tried the 30x minute walk @ 5x minute changes a few times, but its been very positive.

So glad I posted the question - thanks 'Doc'.

chow_farn wrote:I've only tried the 30x minute walk @ 5x minute changes a few times, but its been very positive.

So glad I posted the question - thanks 'Doc'.

You are very welcome. My pleasure!

Doc,

I wish you were closer, I'd like to train with you.

Walter Joyce wrote:Doc,

I wish you were closer, I'd like to train with you.

Walter:

That would be cool. It's been my experience that I always learn something from everyone I train with.

And aside from martial art interests, I'd love to have you show me how to play a harp the way you do!