internal before external is a waste of time?

[D_Glenn]

The mantis training has 3 different stages:

beginner stage - develop speed.
intermediate stage - develop Shenfa
advantage stage - back to nature

When the fire has reached to the highest temperature, there will be no color. When you have reached to the highest level in CMA, you have no Shenfa. The reason is simple. In combat speed, your Shenfa will disappear completely.

We have 3 stages of training as well:

1 - 畫道 'Hua Dao' - Draw out the way; Learn the movements with slow methodical practice.
2 - 發力 'Fa Li' - Practice with power; this is the stage of learning to use shenfa (first we learn the 波浪勁 'Bolang Jin' method of issuing power) in every strike or throw.
3 - 渾圓 'Hunyuan' - High level stage where it's a blend of the first 2 stages, holding back the 'fa li' until the perfect opportunity. This is how we move though during a fight so it's not technically a high level stage, it's just basic fighting. It's the capability of having a lot of power if you spent a lot of time developing stage 2 though, you can't just skip the 2nd stage and expect to not show the shenfa, in order to 'hold something back' you have to have it in the first place.

Also a big difference is that we don't move from 1 stage to the next, we are always practicing all 3 stages.


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[johnwang]

Let say you use bow and arrow stance to punch forward. To use your back heel as pivit point to turn is to force yourself to stand solid "before" you hit forward, which will give you a solid backup of your punch. Using the ball to turn tends to create a habit that you spin your back foot "while" you punch, and that motion will not give you a solid backup of your foot and body because your body is moving backward while you punch forward. That is the main purpose of pivoting on heel.

Since your opponent is a moving object, do you have to re-adjust yourself according to your opponent's movement? The back foot stuck feeling just don't feel right to me.

[cdobe]

The editing between 1:02 and 1:05 gave me a good laugh. Didn't expect you to come from the left again...

[Robert Young]

Let say you use bow and arrow stance to punch forward. To use your back heel as pivit point to turn is to force yourself to stand solid "before" you hit forward, which will give you a solid backup of your punch. Using the ball to turn tends to create a habit that you spin your back foot "while" you punch, and that motion will not give you a solid backup of your foot and body because your body is moving backward while you punch forward. That is the main purpose of pivoting on heel.

Since your opponent is a moving object, do you have to re-adjust yourself according to your opponent's movement? The back foot stuck feeling just don't feel right to me.

I'm not quite understand the meaning of re-adjust. But, I don't think it make any difference either way. Like I said earlier, it is a habit from training. It is harder to turn with the heel, but it is more flexible once you get used to it in my opinion.

[dragonprawn]

In the past 2 days, I have tried to turn on my heel for at least a 100 times. everytime I have the feeling that my foot was "stucked" on the ground as if somone is pulling on my leg back. It's not a good feeling at all.

See John to me feeling stuck to the ground is a great feeling. It is the third most common thing my teacher tells us to do. Basically it's "More tuck in, more round, feel stuck to the ground". But it is all a matter of what you use it for I suppose. In our system we want to be able to be stuck to the ground at any given time, whether attacking, yielding, whatever. I've felt your headlock and sure I'd like a headlock like yours. My brush knee is my best move and if you felt it you might want it too. But there are only so many things/ways to train. and like you told me that day "One sharp knife."

[johnwang]

In our system we want to be able to be stuck to the ground at any given time,...

Can you post a clip that turn on the heel? Whether it's easier to turn on the toe and hard to turn on the heel is not my concern. I'm more interesting in the combat effectiveness instead.

If your opponent moves back and your bow-arrow stance cannot reach him and you have to change your bow-arrow stance into your monkey stance, how can you slide your back foot forward if you get stucked on your heel? Do you feel that you may have "mobility" problem by turning on your heel? In other words, how easy can you slide your back foot if you have to?

[internalenthusiast]

hi...

just a couple thoughts...

the two clips john showed, of the reverse punch and brush knee... this may be a matter of terminology, but i personally wouldn't say they don't have shenfa. i'd say they have the shenfa that is called for by that particular interpretation of those movements.

to be more specific, the moves appear to me to be primarily shifting and twisting. twisting of waist, not hips. but definitely a deliberate use and integration of the torso (and legs).

what i don't see, overtly at least, is the vertical spinal wave. i think that can certainly be integrated into those moves, but lots of people don't. and, i suspect john could do that, if he wanted to.

about the rotating on the heel: well, i've had the same teacher as dragonprawn, and so think i have at least some understanding of the place this comes from. yes, if one rotates on the toe, IMO the body moves back in relation to (say) a strike. so that can be a loss of power. turning on the toe, IMO relies more on body mass and momentum, and less on root.

sometimes, one can be in a position when one can use the "full monty", and rotate on the heel. sometimes, as dragonprawn says, one doesn't have time or opportunity for that.

in any case, it may be a matter of semantics...but if shenfa is defined as torso method, i think john's clips exhibit that. even if the "torso method" is not the same as some other methods.

i mean my thoughts with respects to all involved.

best...

PS: in regards to your last post, john: stuck to the floor is a momentary thing, sometimes. in other words, i don't think it precludes follow step, etc., at all.
stability/mobility: one has to have both, in rapid succession?

[dragonprawn]

If your opponent moves back and your bow-arrow stance cannot reach him

If my opponent moves away my problem might be over, I don't know. But if he moves in and I yield successfully so he is momentarily at my mercy in my wheelhouse I might be able to use my maximum power strike with heel turning to counterattack. We train to maximize power this way. Then when you have the opportunity you can do so. Again, I don't like moves like brush knee for chasing someone down - I am talking counterattack. And if I use these moves for throwing (and I'm no thrower) then ball pivoting may work better (I couldn't say).

If you never train to maximize power and always give up power for speed you could be missing something (in our system). In fact we want our students to maximize power this way before they work on quicker footwork. That comes later. this is mostly because power training with resistance makes for correct structure.

John, I wish I could make/post clips. It is spring break now so this would be the time to do it. I am always so busy. You know I can try to tape me, my fellow students, and maybe my teacher on World Tai Chi day. We can do some heel turning for you I'm sure. Somebody pm me of how to get a video I make on my flip camera posted. what's the best way?

[C.J.W.]

If you never train to maximize power and always give up power for speed you could be missing something (in our system). In fact we want our students to maximize power this way before they work on quicker footwork. That comes later. this is mostly because power training with resistance makes for correct structure.

From the perspective of a Bagua guy, I don't see how one needs to sacrifice speed for power or vice versa. Easy Physics tell us that F=ma; the more acceleration/speed you have, the more power you can also generate. So in Bagua, quicker footwork directly translates to extra power.

[dragonprawn]

Well I'm also looking for power from the ground up. If I am not pushing against the ground I lose power. My teacher was also a college physics prof - trust me we have this covered. I can say almost for certain that in this particular move of brush knee twist step I have maximized power. None of my partners ever said hit me harder, though a couple of felloe students have a great brush knee also.

Speed vs. power - sports car vs. tractor trailer. Speed and acceleration is only part of the equation.

[johnwang]

quicker footwork directly translates to extra power.

The longfist way is the same too. If you start from a bow-arrow stance, change it into monkey stance, and end with golden rooster stance, even if your back foot is not on the ground, your body momentum will generate enough power for you.



Baji master Adam Hsu told me in great detail that in the beginner level training, if your move your back foot when you strike then you are wrong. The reason is you will need to borrow the counter force from the ground. He also said that during the advance level training, if your back foot gets stucked on the ground (not sliding forward) then you are also wrong. The reason is you are not using your momentum to generate force. Both methods can generate power but since the sliding method can give you better mobility, that's why in the Baji system, it's considered more advance level training.

In the following clip, you can see that Adam "slided" on his back foot for almost all his punches. At 0.29, Adam did a back arm punch, please watch his back heel. Also from 0.59 to 1.02, Adam did 4 continuous Fajin. Please watch his back heel too. None of his Fajin has "foot stucked" look IMO.

It's much more fun to discuss with youtube clip.

[johnwang]

Please watch the "heel up" at 0.15.

[edededed]

I don't practice bajiquan, but bajiquan is quite well-known for turning on the ball of the foot, I think. (Other styles I am not so sure, xingyi/bagua usually does not turn on the foot at all.)

[johnwang]

Someone may argue that if you turn your heel, you may have few more inches of extra reach. IMO, the distance between you and your opponent depends on your front foot position and not your back foot position. In the following clip, as long as I land my right foot behind my left foot, my ability to reach to my opponent will stay unchange.

[bailewen]

I was going to post from a slightly different angle but, what the heck. . .

I think what you (Ed) are alluding to is Bajiquan's infamous "grinding" step. It's completely irrelevant without context. We don't "turn on the ball off the foot" as some sort of matter of course. There are only certain specific moves that use the grinding step. There are other moves where you have to turn on the heel. I wasn't going to post earlier because my view is already fairly well represented on the thread. Heel/ball really depends on what you're doing. As was mentioned earlier, turning on the ball for a reverse punch moves your COG away from the target by 2 or 3 inches so it completely robs you of power and penetration. OTOH, if we're not talking about a pivot so much as driving off the ball of the foot and allowing the heel to come up off the ground (like a classic boxer's straight right) then you get your penetration back. In keeping with more typical CMA footwork where you want to stay more planted, let's look at a punch being fired off 90 degrees from a bow stance：

In a punch like that, you're better off turning in the ball because what you need it not "forward" drive. That punch is driving by rotational power. In other moves, like the rear hand palm strike that gets it's power largely from the transition between a roughly 6/4 half horse stance at the beggining into a forward bow at the end...you definitely should turn on the heel or, again, you rob power from the strike.

Let's move to a move everyone knows and that sort of brought up the issue, Brush Knee Twist Step. It's gonna depend on what you are doing. Do you need the extra reach or not? Are you striking or throwing? If you are using it as an arm bar or a throw, the rotation on the ball makes more sense because what you need is rotation, not forward drive. If you are using the palm as a finger jab to the eyes then neither power nor rotation is that important. I'd say rotation slightly more important because you might want more lateral power on the lower hand to pull the persons lead arm across their body.

All these tiny considerations lead me to my final point, which was originally my initial point: This issue is just counting how many angels fit on a pinhead. It's a fairly pointless and counterproductive issue to get caught up in. It's worth noting but not a good idea to fix to statically in training. You should allow your footwork to adjust to your needs at the time and not try to force the body to match the feet. There's this platonic ideal a lot of people have about footwork where they thing it drives everything. Yes and no. It's critically important but the feet should be in service of the body. They should move wherever they need to to get the job done. If you want your gongfu to actually be of any practical use then your footwork is ultimately going to contain tons of little shuffling steps and minor adjustments to get the job done. Sometimes you may actually need to step away from the opponent during your strike. Maybe he's shooting forward to jam your attack and you need an extra inch or to to get better power. Suddenly "wrong" is "right".

I like to look at what effect different kinds of footwork has but really try to stay far away from any hard and fast rules about it.