masters

[dragonprawn]

Take it easy wushu - I didn't say you contradicted yourself. There were contradictory statements by two posters (a first in internet discussion board history no doubt.

As for your history lesson - do you mean to tell me that the Elite Martial Athletic Association which was founded by a Chinese national hero, and included as its members master Chen Zizheng, master Luo Guangyu and master Geng Ji Shan did away with the term master long before it was shut down by the government of the People's Republic of China? I'll guess I'll just have take your word for it.

And my master did not tell me about the good old days - I was there. I am old.

[cdobe]

The last few posts made it very obvious that there is a big confusion on this thread. My original point, as well as Wushutiger's I guess, is that the western term master is a fantasy title that never existed in China for martial artists.

The point is NOT that the various traditional forms of addressing teachers should be abandoned. Laoshi, Shifu/Sifu or whatever are perfectly legimate terms depending on the context. The point is, that they do not translate as master, but are various ways of saying teacher.

As far as I know from old texts, there hasn't been much of a change in using these terms (I wouldn't call them titles) between the late Qing dynasty and today. So this isn't a case of traditional versus modern Wushu. That is nothing but a straw man argument.

[D_Glenn]

In traditional Martial art terms the designation of 師傅 Shifu would only be used by a student who has undergone the 拜師 Baishi (disciple ceremony) and had officially become a 徒弟 Tudi (disciple), even then this term is only for private use behind closed doors. In public the student would only use 老師 Laoshi or if in a hostile situation refer to the teacher as older brother or older uncle. It's more an honorary title to designate the relationship change after the Baishi ceremony. With Chinese people who still know tradition it's actually almost insulting to call them 師傅 Shifu if you're just an ordinary student, plus it will make them cringe if said in public.


As was already mentioned and what people seem to be confusing with the Western concepts of Master Craftsmen and Apprentice is the word 師父 Shifu, same pronunciation different Character and meaning.


.

[beegs]

people keep saying the western term Master, etc, but its chinese immigrants who started and still use the name, so its again a chinese thing, not american.

as for the shifu thing, yeah its different than original meaning but again americans didnt start that, no more than the word sensei ,guro ,pendekar , etc this is all asian people coming here and using the titles and spreading it down to americans.

coach is now used by bjj guys of blue belt level when teaching, professor is used by bjj teachers as is master or grandmaster, this is world thing, not an american thing

these words, master etc have taken on new meanings and thats just the way it is.

football in england is different than football in america, lol

[dragonprawn]

Good post beegs. I didn't know that about bjj.

[wushutiger]

As for your history lesson - do you mean to tell me that the Elite Martial Athletic Association which was founded by a Chinese national hero, and included as its members master Chen Zizheng, master Luo Guangyu and master Geng Ji Shan did away with the term master long before it was shut down by the government of the People's Republic of China? I'll guess I'll just have take your word for it.

That is exactly what I am telling you, and in order to understand this you would have to understand the menatality and history of what was happening within CMA at the end of the Qing dynasty, as these skill sets became redundant within the milirary as a career (end of the cold weapons era). It became a bit of a mix of fantasy and reality and one of the MAIN reasons for the Jingwu to take this approach was to be dis-associated with the boxer rebellion, which tarnished CMA name completely. Nothing to do with communists.

[dragonprawn]

So Jingwu stopped having teachers of the martials arts referred to with honorifics? Specifically which ones, do you know? And did the PRC really persecute MA teachers? I mean I've always heard that but have no details.

[KEND]

Thanks for your compliments Julian, I would indeed bitch slap you . My original post was referring to the debased currency of the term 'master' and the fact that I no longer use it when communicating[as an aside, two of my students from years ago call themselves 'grandmasters']. The thread then diverged into the meaning of sifu, master etc which has been exhaustively examinedin the past. As was said there are no criteria as in say chess or a heirarchy as in the university system. I think it is best to use teacher or coach if you have to use a title.

[cdobe]

people keep saying the western term Master, etc, but its chinese immigrants who started and still use the name, so its again a chinese thing, not american.

as for the shifu thing, yeah its different than original meaning but again americans didnt start that, no more than the word sensei ,guro ,pendekar , etc this is all asian people coming here and using the titles and spreading it down to americans.

coach is now used by bjj guys of blue belt level when teaching, professor is used by bjj teachers as is master or grandmaster, this is world thing, not an american thing

these words, master etc have taken on new meanings and thats just the way it is.

football in england is different than football in america, lol

What they brought with them were the foreign terms. We inflated the actual meaning of those "titles" by translating it as 'master' and the immigrants and teachers abroad adopted the term. Who doesn't want to be someone elses master?
Sensei is the same as the Chinese xiansheng and literally means 'earlier born'. Guru has become to simply mean teacher in Indonesia and India. The term pendekar is a little controversial and I have heard Indonesians say, that it has much less significance than guru in the country of its origin.
Things change, that's for sure, but why should we perpetuate the use of this inappropriate translation, when it is not rooted in the Asian MA traditions in the first place? The term master leads to feelings of entitlement on the part of the teacher and cultish behavior on the part of the students - You're either with the master or against him. Especially in our time the term is anachronistic and inappropriate.

@Ken
Sorry Ken, for turning this discussion into something else. It's one of my pet peeves and I think the concept is not questioned enough in the MA world. I have arrived to the same conclusions as you, coming from a different angle.

[cdobe]

So Jingwu stopped having teachers of the martials arts referred to with honorifics?

No. They were all laoshi before Jingwu was founded and continue to be laoshi to this day.

[cdobe]

I'm sorry for being so flip about it but it seems you missed my point. His family name is "Sun" not "LuTang". In English he'd be "Mr. Sun". It's no more appropriate to call him "Lutang Laoshi" than it is to call the president of the USA "President Barak".

Thanks for the clarification, Omar. I always thought his last name was Wu J'quan and his first name 'Ian'

Wu Jianquan's training was very hard, but he was a very friendly guy. I heard a local Chinese Xingyi teacher say, that his old teacher didn't like Wu, because he thought that his friendliness towards his students and basically everyone else was totally inappropriate.
Another thing is that the particular tudi, I get this information from, was a very close student, who lived with Wu for some time. It's also interesting to note, that the organisation Wu founded in Shanghai was named Jianquan Taijiquan Association (鑑泉太極拳社), not Wu Jianquan or Wu family TJQ Association.

CD

[bailewen]

Sounds totally fucking weird to me but...I looked it up and I guess you're right.

Maybe I'm just traditional that way. You might have a "Mike's Gym" or something but you'd never find a "George's Middle School". Plenty of "George Washington High Schools" or even "Washington High". Naming a big organization after someone's given name, to my mind, it just plain "wrong". Addressing teachers by their first name even more so.

I understand if you are learning from your buddies or teaching really informally but I don't even see many American teachers being addressed by first names. Here and there it happens but I always find it weird. It's a particularly big battle for me personally because as an ESL teacher in China I am always getting hollered at in the halls with the phrase, "Hi! Belove!". I shout back "MISTER Belove" before I've even seen who's calling me and if it's a male student will grab them by their school jacket and not let them go until they have addressed me correctly. I blame it on the vast majority of other western teachers teaching English here who are not really teachers but rather globe trotting back packers just trying to earn a couple buck and don't really like to identify as teachers so they have students address them by name. 80% of the student body thinks my name is Belove. (it's not. My name is Omar)

So getting back on topic, whether it's Shifu or Laoshi or Xiansheng, jiao lian or whatever else doesn't seem to make much difference to me. If the person is formally your teacher (you pay tuition or are a disciple) then some term of respect is appropriate, even if it's just "Mister".

First name basis makes things extremely informal and, IMO, tends to complicate the teaching process. It undercuts your authority.

[RobP2]

First name basis makes things extremely informal and, IMO, tends to complicate the teaching process. It undercuts your authority.

That's interesting, I've found completely the reverse. I'd find it very weird if my studentshad to call me "Mr" or anything other than "Robert". Ditto for my teachers. If respect and authority have to be legislated then it creates a barrier IMHO

[gilbride100]

The use of "master" in CMA does not come from Chinese immigrants, but from Western writers who were describing their first contacts with Japanese and Chinese martial arts instructors in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. Back then, if you wanted to learn to dance you went to a "dance master," if you wanted to learn to ride a horse you went to a "riding master" and if you wanted to learn to fence you went to a "fencing master." (As I mentioned in an earlier post, this ultimately goes back to the guild system.) When these writers were describing Asian martial arts instructors for a Western reading audience, they called them "masters," because that's what everybody called a professional martial arts instructor back then. The etymology and intended meaning of the term was "teacher"- no more and no less. All of the overblown associations with the term have developed since then, and in my opinion they are a direct result of martial arts movies and fiction, and have nothing to do with any traditional term of the East or West.

[bailewen]

First name basis makes things extremely informal and, IMO, tends to complicate the teaching process. It undercuts your authority.

That's interesting, I've found completely the reverse. I'd find it very weird if my studentshad to call me "Mr" or anything other than "Robert". Ditto for my teachers. If respect and authority have to be legislated then it creates a barrier IMHO

First thought it....lol...you have clearly....never taught children.

Aside from that, it's got nothing to do with "legislating" authority. It has a whole lot to do with peoples cultural backgrounds, both yours and your students. Addressing people by their first name sends a subliminal message that you are peers. If your intention is to create a more 'educational' environment, as opposed to 'instructional' than that is a useful choice. The couple times I have taught (small groups here and there) I was always addressed by my first name but, and this relates to my earlier comments about ESL teachers in China, I never fully took on the role of "teacher". I was just a guy trying to get by in college with no full time work and a lot of my peers encouraging me to teach.

I remember listening to a couple of Karate teachers talking about the subject in a podcast somewhere and the one who was extremely insistent on being called "Sensei" only required that during class. The instant that class was over he went back to Bob or Frank or whatever his name was. ( I forget ) I think my views on this also relate to the issue of class uniforms. I remember Meeks talking about his choice on that and how he found that once he starting requiring a uniform, his students were noticeable more serious during class.

Maybe it's just my personal style and I may abandon it later in life. I demand to be addressed as "Mr. Belove" by my Jr. High students because discipline is a major challenge (50+ students in a class) and since I am so well like by the students I find I actually need to artificially create some distance. They need to see me as a teacher first and friend second. Maybe it's got to do with my 10 years (roughly) in the restaurant industry. It would be unthinkable in most fine dining establishments to address any one by their first name unless they specifically requested and even then only with a certain amount of reluctance. Age is probably a big issue too. I have never really learned from young teachers. They've mostly all been old enough to be my dad. When I was in TKD as a teenager my teacher was in his 50's. I had YC Wong (80's) my current teacher (late 60's and very traditional) The only couple of times I ever addressed a teacher by his first name was when he was close to my age.

Meh, I suppose age trumps every other reason I have come up with. If they're close to 20 years my senior I use an honorific. If they are within 10 years, probably not. . . still don't mind it though if they prefer it.