dacheng wrote:. . .
The english translation is at
http://www.yiquan-academy.eu - see "Latest articles"
I'm sure that some people didn't expect such views from Zhao Daoxin
Link is broken. Here's a copy of the interview with commentary by Phillip Starr,
https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php? ... 2678473183 .
Omaha Kung-Fu
October 9, 2015
AN INTERVIEW WITH ZHAO DAOXING Part 1by Phillip Starr
I will begin a series of presentations (together with my commentaries) on an interview with Mr. Zhao Daoxin that was conducted in the 1980's by Huang Jitao and translated by Andrzej Kalisz. This interview reveals what Chinese martial arts were like back in the early part of the last century and provides some real insights into the current state of the Chinese martial arts.
While many of our readers may not be practitioners of Chinese martial arts, the interview is still very useful because it outlines what has, what can, and in many cases, what is, currently happening to traditional Japanese, Okinawan, and Korean martial disciplines. I have had to edit some of the wording to make it more grammatically correct but other than that, the wording is literal. At the conclusion of certain parts of the interview, I will interject my own commentary...
I begin by presenting a brief introduction of one of Mr. Zhan's main teachers, Mr. Zhang Zhaodong, who is my kung-fu grandfather (my teacher's teacher).
-Phillip Starr
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Zhang Zhaodong (1865-1938): Also known as Zhang Zhankui, my martial arts grandfather was born in Hejian, Hebei Province. He moved to Tianjin in 1877 to try to find a job (at the age of 13!). Here he met one of the most famous Xingyiquan boxers of the time, Li Zunyi. He eventually became Li's sworn brother and Li introduced him to his own teacher, Master Liu Qilan (who was one of the eight disciples of Li Luoneng, the founder of Xingyiquan). Both Li and Liu made Zhang train hard so that he could master the Xingyi system. At the age of 16 he met Cheng Tinghua, one of the foremost disciples of the founder of Baguazhang kung-fu, Dong Haiquan. Although some people claim that Zhang trained under Dong, that is untrue. In fact, when Zhang initially asked Cheng to teach him, Cheng refused.
Later on, Zhang assisted Cheng by testifying in court regarding the purchase of some land. Because of his testimony, Cheng was awarded the land and he agreed to teach Zhang. Cheng and Zhang became great friends and Cheng was very intrigued by Zhang's performances of Xingyiquan. Cheng saw that Zhang was very, very skilled and never referred to him as a "student." Instead, he referred to him as a "close friend" and Zhang even lived in Cheng's house for some time. It was during this time that Cheng learned Xingyi boxing from Zhang and a number of other Xingyi practitioners. Cheng was killed during the Boxer Rebellion of 1900.
Zhang returned to Tianjin and worked for the local city government in Tianjin as a bounty hunter. In 1911 he and several other kung-fu teachers formed the Martial Arts Association of Tianjin. He also worked as a bodyguard and was reknowned as a peerless fighter. When he was older, he returned to Beijing and was known to thrash young Chinese hoodlums who were trying to intimidate the older people in his neighborhood. In his twilight years he also spent a good deal of time working to develop his own system, Xingyi Bagua. This system would combine the power of Xingyiquan with the fast, elusive footwork of Baguazhang. Perhaps this is why my own teacher, W. C. Chen (who was a student of Zhang's), worked so hard to combine Xingyi, Bagua, and Baixingquan.
Zhao Daoxin (1908-1990): Zhao Daoxin, originally known as Zhao Enqing, hailed from Tianjin. He trained under Zhang Zhaodong and within a short time, was able to defeat many well-known fighters in the area. In 1930 he attended the National Martial Arts Competition in Hangzhou and won the championship. He went on to study under Wang Xianghai, a student of the famous Xingyi master, Guo Yenshen (known as "Divine Crushing Fist"). Wang would eventually found the Yiquan system. Zhao was one of Wang's best students and it was Wang who gave him the name, "Daoxin."
Zhao was skilled at applying modern scientific knowledge to explain various facets of traditional martial arts and he utlimately created his own method, which became known as Xin Hui Zhang.
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Huang (The Interviewer): "So, is traditional wushu (martial arts) not effective for fighting?"
Zhao: "People from traditional styles say that modern wushu (martial arts) from the national institutes is just "flowery forms" but that doesn't mean that the traditional practitioners themselves possess true "gongfu." The wushu from the national institutes neglects the fighting aspects of martial arts, while traditional wushu practitioners only talk about fighting. That doesn't mean that they have any real fighting skill.
Traditional wushu, as it's taught nowadays, is just like contemporary wushu...it's mainly about training forms. Moreover, there are many symbolic or ritualistic gestures, which have nothing to do with fighting.
Looking at it from the point of view of training, these schools still use old methods that are not very effective. In theory, training routines should develop practical fighting skills but, in fact, they're more like methods of meditating or developing patience. It's just so much useless effort.
I don't know how many dozens of thousands of people practice traditional martial arts in China but I doubt that there any very many (if any) who could prove their worth on the international fighting stage."
Commentary: Sound familiar? It should. I often speak against calling contemporary wushu a true martial art. It's really just a martial performance, which has no practical fighting value. However, the vast majority of current "traditional" kung-fu schools are no better; they practice forms and very little else. The few additional training routines that they utilize are not very efficient in so far as developing real fighting skill is concerned.
The "symbolic and ritualistic gestures" to which he refers, are found in many schools of kung-fu. They often involve waving the arms about and moving into very nice-looking stances but they have virtually nothing to do with fighting; there is no practical application for them. Oftentimes, they are/were used to identify the style from which a given form is derived.
Clearly, Zhao is unimpressed with the quality of both contemporary and traditional martial arts as they are being taught in China (remember that this interview took place in the 1980's).
Huang:"But in the days when foreign fighting experts and strong men came to China, Chinese masters of that generation defeated them repeatedly."
Zhao: "If there really are so many examples of Chinese masters defeating foreigners, why are the Chinese the only ones who talk about it? Why don't the foreigners mention it? Maybe they don't want to talk about being defeated.
However, I ask how many Chinese were defeated. We don't talk about that because it would be humiliating. Anyway, we don't know about the proportions as to victories and defeats.
And if Wu Song (a famous Chinese martial arts hero) had fought a cat instead of a tiger, there would be no reason to praise him for centuries. So, what kinds of opponents were these foreigners who our masters defeated? My teacher, Zhang Zhaodong, met a Russian "strong man" and I fought a Danish boxer. Other friends of ours had similar encounters...but our opponents were defeated after just one blow! There was no real fight...but that was because traditional Chinese martial arts didn't meet real tigers!
In those days, you could become famous because you'd defeated a foreigner and that wasn't too difficult because none of the foreigners were real experts!
Even more challenging was fighting with other Chinese at that time. No foreigners signed up for the leitei tournaments in Hangzhou or Shanghai. The people from traditional styles, even if they were monks or great masters who were famous, either got hurt or were too afraid to fight. The winners, although they were supposed to represent their traditional systems, used completely different methods of training for these fights."
Commentary: I guess I'd never really thought about the fact that the foreigners who fought the Chinese back in the early part of the last century weren't champions in their own countries...in fact, most of them weren't well-known at all! So, to defeat such opponents is not necessarily indicative of great skill.
He is correct in stating that foreigners did not participate in the leitei tournaments. These were fighting events that were conducted on specially-constructed platforms of various kinds. And he says that those who won these events trained in methods outside of their traditional systems, reinforcing his position that many of the old forms of training were ineffective.
Huang: "Could you tell us your opinions and views regarding Chinese martial arts?"
Zhao: "There isn't much time, so I will only outline some issues. This will not be a very systematic discussion and because people always talk about the advantages, I will speak about the problems."
Huang: "First, tell us what you think about the internal and external divisions and the divisions of styles based on territory (northern and southern styles)."
Zhao: "If we want Chinese martial arts to develop, we need to reject divisions. I'm not saying that such divisions are meaningless but they only partially describe the differences between styles and say nothing about their methods of fighting.
Divisions in martial arts should be based on their methods of fighting rather than their methods of practice. And they shouldn't be trying to fool people. They should express the movements of the human body and the development of real technique - not sect-like customs that have been nourished for hundreds or even thousands of years.
The divisions for Shao-lin, Wudang, Emei, and Zhongnan arts is only expressing the fact that communication was difficult in the old times. But that time is past. The internal-external division was made up by literati who were fascinated by the style that they practiced. They started calling their arts "internal family arts"; skillful writers creating flowery descriptions! The truth is that no one would say that he was representative of an external family art (because such styles did not exist). In fighting, there are no "styles."
Commentary: Zhao emphasizes the need to drop the idea of "internal" and "external" labels and focus instead of how each style approaches the subject training and fighting. He's obviously unimpressed with Sun-Lutang's coinage of the term, "internal family arts." Sun coined this term back in the 1930's. Prior to that time, the internal and so-called "external" styles never referred to themselves as such.
Huang: "But the internal-external division is at least representative for the real division between soft and hard (styles) isn't it?"
Zhao: "This division is even more muddled. Some use it just to criticize other schools. When they talk about their own school they stress that soft and hard supplement each other; that internal and external are trained together. They maintain that they're the only ones who keep a proper balance between soft and hard, while others tend too much towards one or the other."
Commentary: Here, Zhao states that the so-called division between "hard and soft styles" is very muddled. The so-called "soft" schools often like to criticize the "hard" schools and vice-versa. Actually, the two should be trained together harmoniously but, according to Zhao, most teachers tend to lean too far towards one or the other.
Huang: "But the concepts of internal-external and soft-hard at least led to the sophisticated theories of internal training; from yi to qi to jin ("from intention to energy to power"...saying that intention, when combined with qi, begets real power)."
Zhao: "Yi-qi-li and jing-qi-shen (intention, qi, and strength, and the concept of sexual essence turning to qi and then turning to spirit- this is an old Daoist idea)...those concepts, as related to internal training, are difficult to express in normal language. We could say that it is about using self-suggestion to induce feelings of comfort and strength. Nowadays there are new ideas that are at least as effective as these old ones, and they are more efficient for practical use."
Commentary: It's true that the old Daoist training methods that were adopted by the so-called "internal" schools are difficult to express in normal language and many of the principles of these ancient concepts are couched in mysterious, hard-to-understand verbage. Some teachers have modernized these ancient training routines, using terms and concepts that are more easily understood and more applicable to the martial aspects of martial arts (that's a nice way of saying that they're more easily applicable to fighting).
AN INTERVIEW WITH ZHAO DAOXING Part 2by Phillip Starr
This is continued from Part 1 of the interview with martial arts legend, Zhao Daoxin:
Huang:"What are the shortcomings of Chinese martial arts as far as fighting is concerned?"
Zhao:"There are a lot of shortcomings and taboos. Apart from those that are common for all (Chinese) martial arts, there are others that are style-specific. For example, everyone fears that their style will resemble some other style, so they try hard to make it look different. If you tell a baguazhang practitioner that his movements resemble taijiquan, he will hardly accept your opinion. If you tell some xingyiquan practitioner that you see some similarities between his art and western boxing, he'll feel bad about it.
Actually, the differences between styles are more in ritual gestures than in their way of fighting. These gestures are useful only for demonstrations; in fighting they are useless and stupid.
There is also the taboo against falling down. In challenge matches there was an unwritten rule that touching the ground with any part of the body other the feet meant defeat. So, in the south they stress the "ma" (horse-riding stance), and in the north they practice "zhuang" (stake standing).
In many styles, long, low postures and a centered torso are emphasized but what is the real value of these stable forms? There is a principle that says, "When the leg is raised, the body is half empty." Following this advice results in losing the opportunity of efficient kicks and striking with the knee! What is rejected in Chinese martial arts is exactly what is most valuable on the international martial arts stage (of fighting competition).
Traditional Chinese martial arts seem like old man arts. Old is seen as being equal to a saint who has great authority and deep knowledge. But for old men it's hard to raise a leg to kick and falling down can be dangerous. So this weakness becomes the taboo of not risking one's balance."
Commentary: It's very true that everyone wants the style that he or she practices to be separate from all others and bear certain hallmarks that no one else uses. Zhao chides the old teachers who don't want to admit that they can no longer perform as they did when they were younger, and who subsequently make up stories about why techniques such as kicking are dangerous and shouldn't be used. In studying his remarks, I think he is laying a lot of the blame for the deterioration of kung-fu squarely in the laps of the oldsters who will not teach the truth and who emphasize following tradition over and above studying martial arts.
Zhao:"Next is the discrepancy between fatigue and the intensity of training. Traditional teachers talk about practicing many hours a day but this is just long-time training of low intensity. The muscles and nervous system are not activated in the way that is necessary for fighting. Those teachers hate using modern training devices and routines and will not ask that students train together. They prefer to hide in a dark place, repeating the same movements over and over, and pondering theory."
Then there is also the discrepancy between theory and practice, between physical technique and physical attributes, and between what is practiced in public and what is done behind closed doors. These are only some examples."
Commentary: Yes, I have had students tell me that they practice several hours each day but the fact is if they did such a thing, they'd quickly pass out from exhaustion...if they're training correctly. If they practice just low-intensity stuff, they can go on for a long time but such training will not beget fighting skill.
Many old-time teachers refuse to look at improving or changing training routines. In kung-fu, students spent the majority of their time practicing alone; they didn't practice fighting drills at all. Zhao strongly disagrees with this form of training. I think that he is mainly ranting about the old teachers who claim to possess great knowledge and fighting skill but who, in reality, just sit in a chair while they watch class and do nothing...they like to talk about fighting and get into intellectual discussions but they themselves no longer train as they should.
Huang:"We were talking about Chinese martial arts in general. Would you care to talk about specific styles?"
Zhao:"Let's start with xingyiquan and baguazhang. First, xingyiquan...in the 1920's and 30's there were many representatives of xingyiquan who won the leitei tournaments. But today the "power" of xingyiquan has decreased. The reason is that apart from problems common to all Chinese martial arts, this one stresses harmony and unity (between body parts). There are many aspects of this art where there is a great lack of harmony (in body structure and technique).
For example, there is a lack of harmony between technique and force. In xingyiquan, the hitting technique is powered by a pushing force (with the feet). Fist or palms may hit the opponent but it doesn't allow you to push the opponent very far away as in when people perform push-hand exercise. Actually, it seems as if xingyiquan people have not decided whether their technique is for sanshou (freestyle fighting) or tuishou (push-hands exercise)."
Commentary: It would seem that Zhao is lamenting the fact that many xingyiquan practitioners have neglected proper body alignment in the practice of their techniques. He is also distressed about xingyi practitioners having taken up the practice of tuishou (push-hands), which is not really a part of traditional xingyi. This has resulted in them becoming confused about how to issue power; they tend to try to push with their fists or palms. Back in the 1920's and 30's they concentrated on fighting and their technique was much superior.
Zhao:"And there is a lack of harmony between form and intention. Everyone talks about form and intention being important but actually, they tend to go towards one extreme or the other. There is also a lack of harmony between fighting exercises and methods (tactics).
People like to compare xingyiquan to western boxing but they're also afraid of doing so. They want this Chinese "thing" to be pure. So, when there is even a small similarity they prefer to get rid of it. I think, as far as training methods and competition goes, that xingyiquan should learn from boxing."
Commentary:Zhao states (and rightly so) that most people who stress the importance of harmony between form and intention actually tend to sway further towards one of these aspects than the other. Thus, their teaching methods are unbalanced and students cannot learn how to harmonize form and intention because their teachers don't do it-
He complains about a lack of harmony between fighting exercises and tactics. That is, the exercises that are practiced primarily for the purpose of developing skill are not in harmony with the actual tactics that xingyi emphasizes. So, the exercises become useless. In a way, he is saying that you must train in the same way that you will fight.
As far as his statements about learning from boxing, look again at what he says...xingyiquan should learn from the training methods used in boxing and from the methods that they employ in competition (probably refering to rules). Boxers train as they will fight and they train with great intensity. Modern xingyiquan stylists tend to practice only their basic postures and forms without regard for how they are applied freely in fighting.
Huang:"Was the creation of xingyibagua the result of trying to fill the shortcomings of xingyi by using baguazhang?"
Zhao:"Mutual supplementing started from friendly contacts between Dong Haiquan (founder of baguazhang) and Guo Yenshen (the "Divine Crushing Fist" of the xingyi school), and between their students. Then Zhang Zhaodong linked them together into one system. But the shortcomings of xingyi cannot be filled by using bagua...
Bagua also has its own shortcomings and they can't be filled by using xingyi. Baguazhang has a thick outside layer through which it is difficult to see anything. If you look in from the outside, there is only an impression of complexity and mystery."
Commentary:Yes, the first layer of bagua keeps most people (including bagua teachers) from truly understanding this enigmatic art. This is it's most serious shortcoming. Bagua forms seem to have nothing whatsoever to do with fighting...
Zhao:"A big part of this first layer are legends about Dong Haiquan and his students. The second layer is the unnecessary and forced use of the theory of the eight trigrams. Bagua teachers always talk about the Yijing ("Book of Changes") but nobody could explain even one link between the art and the book!"
Commentary: In my third book, Martial Maneuvers, I make remarks about this very subject. There is not and never has been any relationship between the art we know as baguazhang and the eight trigrams or the "Book of Changes." However, the vast majority of bagua practitioners (even in China) are convinced otherwise and continue to waste their time speculating about such relationships.
Zhao:"The third layer is not distinguishing between basic exercises and fighting. Even bagua teachers think about "how to use this change" and "how to move around the opponent with tangnibu (mud walking steps), how to move behind the opponent and attack him the rear"...those are just illusory thoughts.
And beyond the third layer, practitioners expand their arms and move around like people starting to learn skating. Sometimes they end up in an extremely twisted position! So, this is a mix of legends, old saint books, and strange techniques."
Commentary: Absolutely. Modern bagua adepts spend all their time walking in circles without knowing why it is central to the practice of this art. They look like disjointed birds on ice skates with arms flailing while they skate around in circles and twist their bodies into unrealistic positions. This is because their teachers, most of whom behave as if they know what they're talking about, know little to nothing of the true bagua art...
Huang:"Taijiquan is attracting a lot of people because of its theory and health benefits. However, many people doubt that such a soft and slow method could work against explosive power."
Zhao:"Laypeople", who know nothing about martial arts, are unbiased and their first impressions can be very accurate. Taijiquan has its own form of comparing skill - tuishou (push-hands). Why should we not be happy with using this is a measure of skill? Is every martial art good for real fighting?
I remember back during the days of the Republic (prior to the communist takeover in 1949) that taijiquan experts would say that they could not prove their fighting skill at leitei tournaments because taijiquan is too profound (and dangerous) and it's very difficult to master. Was this some kind of weak excuse or was it a sincere statement?
Taijiquan theory looks great and could serve as a model for other classical martial arts theories. The main idea is the relationship between yin and yang. You want to achieve real hardness? Start from becoming as soft as possible, because great softness ultimately changes into hardness. Do you want to be fast? Then start from slowness.
This philosophy that says that when a particular attribute reaches its extreme, it becomes its opposite...is attracting many people. But has anyone tested this idea to see if it's true? No.
But if you could see what the real taijiquan masters - those who can issue real power - are practicing in secret, you will understand."
Commentary: Zhao is obviously disgusted with taijiquan "experts" who refused to compete in the old leitei tournaments because they considered their art too lethal (by the way, Bruce Lee likewise refused to compete in American tournaments because he felt that he was "too dangerous"...). Obviously, he is impressed with taiji theory but thinks that people need to test it and develop effective training routines that will develop genuine fighting skill.
He ends this segment by stating that the true taiji fighters practice in secret and this is why no one is able to learn the real art. Those who wish to develop real skill must get behind these "closed doors."
Huang:So, you say that those young people who want to develop fighting skills are, in some part, misled by taijiquan concepts. If this is true, then maybe Shao-lin is more truthful? They stress hard, fast, fierce, and the use of both upper and lower body. People think that Shao-lin monks are the last "kings" of real fighting.
Zhao:The Ming generals had the same opinion and went to the Shao-lin Temple. They were disappointed. Today, many young people leave school to go to Shao-lin and their faith in that art turns to ashes. They hope to develop real fighting skill, skills that ordinary people don't have...but all they learn are some acrobatic tricks.
Training methods that they practice are outdated and not useful for developing real fighting skill. Standing upside-down on the fingers, absorbing (feigned) strikes, and some tricks of illusion will delight the public. Ma Liang's new form of wushu (Ma Liang published a book, New Chinese Wushu, in 1918) and contemporary wushu, both of which are despised by traditional practitioners, are based on Shao-lin.
And I remember back in the 1920's and 30's how these "kings of real fighting" kept losing at leitei tournaments and were running away like rats."
Commentary: I think that I'm fairly safe in saying that Zhao doesn't think very highly of 20th century Shao-lin. Apparently, the true art has been gone for several centuries. Those who go to Shao-lin today will learn some flowery contemporary wushu forms and "sanda", which is nothing more than very sloppy kickboxing. These are certainly NOT the stuff of which the original, true art of Shao-lin was made.
Huang:"And what do you think of southern systems?"
Zhao:"When we look at southern styles we can see that they have their own unique character(s). I can't say much about them because I didn't study them but from what I saw at the tournaments at the end of the 1920's, the "southern wind" is not "making you freeze."
Commentary: I think Zhao's opinion of the southern forms of kung-fu, as far back as the 1920's, is pretty low... 'nuff said.
Huang:"Finally, please tell us about the martial art that you have created."
Zhao:"My method is the result of mistakes and losses. When I was young I liked to fight with famous experts. I had no respect for them and when I defeated them, I didn't care about some of the good ideas and techniques they had. This was not good because there could be no exchange of knowledge and also, feelings were hurt.
Because I disputed what many martial arts teachers were doing and because I held very different views, I kept my distance from the various martial arts circles. Until recently, people called me "eccentric" and "stubborn."
Initially, I created xinhuizhang to explain the traditional methods of creating and issuing force but this is just a form (and without actually training to fight with these principles) and cannot, by itself, improve someone's fighting skill.
Now I'm working on summarizing and implementing the training methods and fighting tactics that I used. But the way of international fighting competition is constantly changing so my methods are always being challenged and outmatched. I must keep working to improve it or there will be no progress.
Lately, I'm worried about how xinhuizhang can issue explosive power with the legs and so far, I haven't resolved the problem. I hope that the younger generation will criticize me."
Commentary: Using bagua and xingyi as his foundation, Zhao worked at creating a new style that would utilize the training methods and fighting tactics that he found to be effective in the competition ring. His final statement is typical of someone living in the People's Republic of China where citizens are discouraged from being proud of their accomplishments.
by dacheng on Thu Jul 17, 2008 4:57 pm 
