Swimming Dragon's Combat Potential?

[BruceP]

Would it be possible to develop Bagua fighting method based solely on what's contained in the Swimming Dragon material?

I did a quick search around the forums but didn't find much in the way of in-depth info, so I wanted to ask the Bagua folks what they think.

Does Swimming Dragon contain enough info to stand alone as a basic stand-up fighting method, or would it require supplimentary material to make it so?

If it does contain enough info, how soon could a trainee begin testing their learning in sportive formats?

Looking forward to reading your thoughts

tia

[D_Glenn]

A few problems with your request:

In the whole of Baguazhang the term 'youshen' (swimming body) refers to literally practicing one's movements as if they were in a pool of water up to their neck and every part of every movement is going against a constant force. This is practicing a form to develop 'shuai' (throwing).

The Cheng Tinghua school of Bagua called itself the 'Youshen Longxing Baguazhang' (swimming body dragon shape bagua) and in this case everything they do falls under the category 'swimming dragon'. (so if you're asking if this style is or can be a stand-alone system? Yes definitely. All you need is it's 8 methods (ba neng) of push, lift, carry, lead, move, capture, chop, and entering (tui, tou, dai, ling, ban, kou, pi, and jin).)

Some branches of that line now have a specific form which they call 'swimming body' of which there are numerous varieties.

And some use it in the original term as a way of practicing.

If you're referring to the supposed Emei one from the book of the same name, I would just ignore that one completely.

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[johnwang]

This may help the discussion. To me it sounds like "entering strategy" + "finish strategy".

http://www.vidoemo.com/yvideo.php?i=Q1N ... lications=

[meeks]

A few problems with your request:

In the whole of Baguazhang the term 'youshen' (swimming body) refers to literally practicing one's movements as if they were in a pool of water up to their neck and every part of every movement is going against a constant force. This is practicing a form to develop 'shuai' (throwing).

The Cheng Tinghua school of Bagua called itself the 'Youshen Longxing Baguazhang' (swimming body dragon shape bagua) and in this case everything they do falls under the category 'swimming dragon'.

Some branches of that line now have a specific form which they call 'swimming body' of which there are numerous varieties.

And some use it in the original term as a way of practicing.

If you're referring to the supposed Emei one from the book of the same name, I would just ignore that one completely.

.

+3
Although I have a different aspect on the 'term' for youshen - I believe it's more about swimming from the inside of your body rather than as if within water (outside the body). But everything else pretty much nails it.

[Dmitri]

If you're referring to the supposed Emei one from the book of the same name, I would just ignore that one completely.

May I ask why?

[D_Glenn]

Although I have a different aspect on the 'term' for youshen - I believe it's more about swimming from the inside of your body rather than as if within water (outside the body). But everything else pretty much nails it.

Agreed but it's the same thing if you think about it. Practicing for throwing is a continuous link inside one's own body. Practicing for striking is 'fa' emitting force in a pulse and moves through the limb at a certain point of the movement.

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[meeks]

sure. ..although swimming body isn't necessarily always for shuai. MY point is you said it's to practise as if moving in water (like in a pool). I said ignore the pool and swim inside your body. Doesn't necessarily contradict you, just gives a different viewpoint.

[D_Glenn]

If you're referring to the supposed Emei one from the book of the same name, I would just ignore that one completely.

May I ask why?

Everything in the beginning of the book is good, well referenced to the original sources and for the most part decent enough translations. Where that form comes from though who knows. Just a lot of red flags go up. The rest of the book is good enough though so that's not an issue.

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[D_Glenn]

sure. ..although swimming body isn't necessarily always for shuai. MY point is you said it's to practise as if moving in water (like in a pool). I said ignore the pool and swim inside your body. Doesn't necessarily contradict you, just gives a different viewpoint.

Agreed.

Although which description is easier for a beginner to understand and requires less indoctrination into the esoteric?

IMO it's much easier to relate to real life experiences that everyone has felt. That's just me though.




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[BruceP]

I was under the impression that swimming dragon was a subset or 'peripheral' body of material that supplimented the core material.

Thanks for the link, John. I loved the last 90 seconds of that clip.

[johnwang]

I loved the last 90 seconds of that clip.

It looks very similiar to the SC "butterfly hands". We can see a strong connection between Bagua and SC here.

Tearing (SI), Cracking (BENG), Striking push (TONG), Hand pushing (TUN), Elbow pressing (ZHOU) 撕崩捅褪肘
Covering hands (GAI), Pulling hands (LUO), Body-shaking hands(YAO), Reverse arm-holding (DAO), Shaking (DOU) 蓋攞搖捯抖
Separate hands (FEN), Hand clamping (YE), Arm guiding (YIN), Arm raising (PENG), Elbow Locking (JIA) 分掖引捧架
Under hook (QUAN), Over hook (CHAO), Wiping (MO), Head circling(PIAN), Clamping head (JIA) 圈抄抹偏夾
Helmet taking (ZAI), Face covering (WU), Forehead push (SU),Sticking drop (ZHUI), Leg seizing (LAO) 摘摀速墬撈
Neck surrounding (HUAN), Chin pushing (TUO), Throat/waist blocking (FENG), Casting (SA), Floating hand (PIAO) 環托封撒飄

[D_Glenn]

This may help the discussion. To me it sounds like "entering strategy" + "finish strategy".

http://www.vidoemo.com/yvideo.php?i=Q1N ... lications=

I think it should be pointed out that your clip has nothing to do with Baguazhang.


That is something completely different:

You Long Gong Taiyi: Swimming Dragon Skill

Taiyi You Long Gong is a Taoist internal martial art and also a fom of health and logevity exercise. It originated in the Wudang mountain region of China and was passed down as a family tradition within one chinese royal family. The art combines elements found in Qigong and Taiji Quan, and is considered to be a form of Taoist Yoga. The three main forms (taulu) of this martial art are Taiyi Swimming Dragon Quan, Taiyi Riding the Wind Sword, and Taiyi 72 Closed Hands (fighting application form). Its static Qigong practice is called Taiyi Tortoise Breathing Gong.

History

According to legend, Taiyi Swimming Dragon Quan was created by a Taoist master who was imprisoned for a long time. He had very little room to move in his prison cell and thus created a form that could be practised in a small area. The practise of the form gave him very good health and soon the prison authorities were wondering why his health was so much better than that of the other prisoners. It is said that ta high official heard of his skill, had him released and started learning the art from the Taoist master.

The art became a family tradition and was passed down in secret within a royal family. Master Yu Anren was the last person to receive the family art. Master Yu broke the family tradition in 1984 when he donated the style to the state and started to teach it openly. He compiled and structured the Taiyi Swimming Dragon Chuan, Taiyi Riding the Wind Sword and the other conventions of boxing and weaponry from the Taiyi Men family.

Yu Anren is from Guilin in Guangxi province. His family originated from Pingjiang county in Hunan province.
Yu learned Taiyi Swimming Dragon Chuan techniques and principals from his grandfather Yu Shao, a famous general. When Yu Anren took part in the Changsha Regional Martial Arts Competition in 1984, he performed the Swimming Dragon Chuan for the first time and won first place for internal style martial art. Since then, his form has spread quickly and the number of followers has reached several thousands. Today it is taught in Hunan (China) by Zhu Mingyuan, Chen Cui’e and Tang Saixian; in Melbourne(Australia) by Li Yong Liang and in San Francisco(USA) by Liping Julia Zhu

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[johnwang]

Sound like my google skill is not good enough.

[Cryptohominid]

The definitions so far given for 'Swimming Body' are quite correct, but...
Just to add another layer of confusion, I have seen certain tactics in different systems sometimes referred to as 'Swimming Body Palms'. For instance, in Gao style we have 4 basic movements combined with a particular stepping method that we call the 'Liang yi' but that I have seen other people refer to as 'Swimming Body'. In this case the movements are specialized mostly for moving through dense crowds, so to the original question—no, they wouldn't make for a stand alone combat system.

Dave

[lazyboxer]

There are many types of dragon baguazhang from different lines, including Yin Fu's:



Though I've seen this described as longxing bagua youshen zhang (龙形八卦游身掌), it's nothing like any of the Cheng family variations, and doesn't conform to D. Glenn's requirements for true swimming body. It's a lot smoother and subtler than most, however, and certainly contains plenty of material on which to base a complete fighting art, particularly since it's part of a much larger curriculum.