Yang family

[wayne hansen]

Lost me at knock down at a distance

[D_Glenn]

Read on, until the end of that paragraph LoL

[D_Glenn]

Something really important in the article is how Chu says that to actually use taijiquan you have to Yield with your eyes, not after contact. Before any contact happens, you need to stay motionless until the opponent has committed to an attack and is 100% certain that it’s going to succeed, but then nope, they miss. The skill should be so good “That not even a fly could land on you.” My Bagua teacher demonstrates this on me all the time. I was doing some casual sport Shuai Jiao with him and every time I would try to grab his collar or sleeve I was grabbing air. I was so committed that I was digging my fingernails into my own palms. After that he could easily just help me fall. I was losing the match before I even made contact.

[D_Glenn]

Another important part of that article is that what tuishou has become today, where the person being pushed out, or taking a step, is the loser, is completely wrong. They’re actually the one who is practicing Taijiquan as a martial art.

In Baguazhang we train to take a step at the slightest pressure or movement towards us. Even if it’s a step that doesn’t even move, it’s just picked up and rotated to change the angle and open up the possibilities for where your other foot can step to.

[Trick]

Ha! MrChu was just worried that his student might “help immigrate” someone better than him.

[Trick]

Something really important in the article is how Chu says that to actually use taijiquan you have to Yield with your eyes, not after contact. Before any contact happens, you need to stay motionless until the opponent has committed to an attack and is 100% certain that it’s going to succeed, but then nope, they miss. The skill should be so good “That not even a fly could land on you.” My Bagua teacher demonstrates this on me all the time. I was doing some casual sport Shuai Jiao with him and every time I would try to grab his collar or sleeve I was grabbing air. I was so committed that I was digging my fingernails into my own palms. After that he could easily just help me fall. I was losing the match before I even made contact.

The skill should be - That not even a fly would think about landing on you

[wayne hansen]

By the way it’s
Fly alight
Feather land

[D_Glenn]

I prefer this translation “ A feather cannot be added and a fly cannot land. The opponent does not understand me, only I understand him.”
First you learn Ting Jin (Listening Skills) from push hands, but then you must go on to refine that into Dong Jin (Understanding/ Knowing Skill).

.

[wayne hansen]

That does not make sense
One is being added one taken away
Yin/yang
Might as well say 2 flies or two feathers
They are both being added

[Bao]

First you learn Ting Jin (Listening Skills) from push hands, but then you must go on to refine that into Dong Jin (Understanding/ Knowing Skill).

Tingjin is listening/following by sensitivity, that is what you need for "A feather cannot be added and a fly cannot land"

Dongjn is not refined tingjin. Sensitivity is not even necessary for Dongjin. Dongjin is understanding the opponent's skill and intention, something that starts on distance, even before the opponent starts to move. None of them are a fixed stage or a progress into another, instead both are necessary and both will continue to develop and become more refined.

[Steve James]

Imo, the difference between ting and dong is the same as between listening and understanding. One is just the ability to retrieve information; the other concerns what one gains from it.
The better the information; the better the chance of correctly interpreting it. For/in application, they are inseparable. But, the better one's ability to gather information, the better one's ability to understand it.

Also, jmo, but these are 'jin' in the sense of a skill, not an energy. Afa phs, the object is to find out what the opponent is doing (how strong, how fast, what direction, what intention). Well, phs has a pattern, so it's really just a way to develop a skill.

Like Sun said, know yourself and know your opponent and you'll do ok . In tcc, though, the theory is to "give oneself up to follow the other." That's easier said than done. People tend to want to talk, not listen. Myself included.

[origami_itto]

Imo, the difference between ting and dong is the same as between listening and understanding. One is just the ability to retrieve information; the other concerns what one gains from it.
The better the information; the better the chance of correctly interpreting it. For/in application, they are inseparable. But, the better one's ability to gather information, the better one's ability to understand it.

Yes I would agree, it's the relationship between knowledge and wisdom, information and understanding, but in this case it is mostly subconscious processing.

[D_Glenn]

That does not make sense
One is being added one taken away
Yin/yang
Might as well say 2 flies or two feathers
They are both being added

Alight and land are synonyms. They basically mean the same thing. Alight is just a bird perching or landing on something.
I just hate the word ‘alight’, that’s why I prefer the second. And I think this phrase occurs in two different classics.

.

[D_Glenn]

First you learn Ting Jin (Listening Skills) from push hands, but then you must go on to refine that into Dong Jin (Understanding/ Knowing Skill).

Tingjin is listening/following by sensitivity, that is what you need for "A feather cannot be added and a fly cannot land"

Dongjn is not refined tingjin. Sensitivity is not even necessary for Dongjin. Dongjin is understanding the opponent's skill and intention, something that starts on distance, even before the opponent starts to move. None of them are a fixed stage or a progress into another, instead both are necessary and both will continue to develop and become more refined.

The two skills, actually senses, are both utilizing the same functions of the human body and mind. When one thing is being developed and trained, the other is also being helped. Ting Jin is easier to develop.

First you have to listen to your own body before you can understand it. First you have to listen to other people’s body’s before you can understand them.

Ting jin is kind of like mapping out an underground cave system. Dong Jin is then using that map, while looking at the mountain, and knowing where the parts of the cave correlate to the ground above it.

Here’s an old thread about these two- https://rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=17802#p298882

.

[origami_itto]

That does not make sense
One is being added one taken away
Yin/yang
Might as well say 2 flies or two feathers
They are both being added

Alight and land are synonyms. They basically mean the same thing. Alight is just a bird perching or landing on something.
I just hate the word ‘alight’, that’s why I prefer the second. And I think this phrase occurs in two different classics.

.

Understand that those are english words.

羽 (yǔ) - Feather
不能 (bù néng) - Cannot
加 (jiā) - Add
蠅 (yíng) - Fly
蟲 (chóng) - Insect
不能 (bù néng) - Cannot
落 (luò) - Fall


加 (jiā) - Add - to add / plus / (used after an adverb such as 不, 大, 稍 etc, and before a disyllabic verb, to indicate that the action of the verb is applied to sth or sb previously mentioned) / to apply (restrictions etc) to (sb) / to give (support, consideration etc) to (sth)
落 (luò) - Fall - to fall or drop / (of the sun) to set / (of a tide) to go out / to lower / to decline or sink / to lag or fall behind / to fall onto / to rest with / to get or receive / to write down / whereabouts / settlement

So Wayne is right, stylistically at least, one word is adding and the other is taking away, even if they are both referring to an increase in OUR mass.

Or does the "fall" refer to the fly LEAVING? Like the proverbial sparrow in the palm?