Favorite Heavy Bag Combinations

[johnwang]

The heavy bag is almost worthless from a cima perspective.

"拳諺說：「內練一口氣，外練筋骨皮」"
CMA old saying said, "You train Qi inside and train muscle, bone and skin outside."

「練皮」的目的除了要強化一般皮膚應該有的防護、感覺、調溫、分泌、代謝、吸收等等的功能外，更要使它腠裡密實而與肉合為一體，所以而有拍、揉、洗等等的方法，總不外要讓它們欲緊密愈好，所以有些功夫深厚的老拳家手臂上的皮膚捏不起來，就是這個道理。
You train "skin" so your skin can protect, feel, change temperature, ... The most important is it will combine your muscle and bone as one. You can hit, wash, rob your skin too. You want your skin to be as tight as possible. This is why when you grab on a CMA guy's arm, you can't pull his skin.

The heavy bag can help you to train your 皮 (skin). It also help you to integrate your 筋骨皮(muscle, bone, skin).

[marvin8]

Practicing cima on one's own is only a small part of the equation although for most of us it is most of our training time. The human body is mostly water and in cima is effected on a cellular level, something that is impossible to replicate on a heavy bag. The heavy bag is almost worthless from a cima perspective.

Apparently, Yao Chengguang, 3rd Generation YiQuan Inheritor, does not see the heavy bag as being worthless.

Starting at 1:40, some example from yi quan.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Suc2cwD6eyw

[C.J.W.]

Practicing cima on one's own is only a small part of the equation although for most of us it is most of our training time. The human body is mostly water and in cima is effected on a cellular level, something that is impossible to replicate on a heavy bag. The heavy bag is almost worthless from a cima perspective.

Apparently, Yao Chengguang, 3rd Generation YiQuan Inheritor, does not see the heavy bag as being worthless.

Yiquan's bag training is something borrowed and adapted from western boxing. The body mechanics they use are based on the full-body power acquired through posture holding (zhanzhuan), which is still traditional in nature. They also focus on other internal principles such as back-hand power (a la Xingyi), yin-yang balance, multi-directional forces, and fajin. The goal is to practice the issuing of short bursts of energy that penetrates and shocks the opponent on the bag, which should not swing and move much at all.

Having said that, there are still some Yiquan branches and practitioners who do not believe in bag training, claiming that it was added later on by one of the founder's senior students rather than part of the original curriculum. They also argue that it is counter-productive to IMA development.

[grzegorz]

Before you come to any conclusions about the things that you believe you already know, my suggestion would be to talk to CMA/IMAists worth their salt and find out more about WHY all those CMA/IMA guys you saw in China were hitting fixed, hard objects with little or no give such as trees, poles, and rocks as opposed to ones that are soft and free-swinging like heavy bags......

I did and I found most of the CIMA people had a profound respect for boxing and MT training methods but due to life in the mainland, when they were young, they did not have access to that kind of equipment. In fact I never met anyone as anti as you stated here. To them is was just another form of jibengong.

[Taste of Death]

Practicing cima on one's own is only a small part of the equation although for most of us it is most of our training time. The human body is mostly water and in cima is effected on a cellular level, something that is impossible to replicate on a heavy bag. The heavy bag is almost worthless from a cima perspective.

Apparently, Yao Chengguang, 3rd Generation YiQuan Inheritor, does not see the heavy bag as being worthless.

Starting at 1:40, some example from yi quan.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Suc2cwD6eyw

Because they don't practice yiquan. They train their misconception of what yiquan is mixed with western boxing. One of the Yaos thought he had created something better by adding boxing. He did this because he didn't understand what he was taught. If you have to add an external practice, which is what heavy bag work is, you are clueless about your cima practice. He thought his yiquan was 1-2 and by adding boxing brought it to 1-2-3. You can ask John Wang. 1 is better than 1-2 and 1-2 is better than 1-2-3.

Some external guy beat up one of the Yaos and when Han Xing Yuan heard about it he hopped on a plane and found the guy and took revenge for them. He then flew to them, told them he took care of it and flew home. And Han did not like to travel.

[Taste of Death]

The heavy bag is almost worthless from a cima perspective.

"拳諺說：「內練一口氣，外練筋骨皮」"
CMA old saying said, "You train Qi inside and train muscle, bone and skin outside."

「練皮」的目的除了要強化一般皮膚應該有的防護、感覺、調溫、分泌、代謝、吸收等等的功能外，更要使它腠裡密實而與肉合為一體，所以而有拍、揉、洗等等的方法，總不外要讓它們欲緊密愈好，所以有些功夫深厚的老拳家手臂上的皮膚捏不起來，就是這個道理。
You train "skin" so your skin can protect, feel, change temperature, ... The most important is it will combine your muscle and bone as one. You can hit, wash, rob your skin too. You want your skin to be as tight as possible. This is why when you grab on a CMA guy's arm, you can't pull his skin.

The heavy bag can help you to train your 皮 (skin). It also help you to integrate your 筋骨皮(muscle, bone, skin).

This is all true and produces excellent results but it's not cima. That doesn't make it bad just a different type of conditioning. The wooden dummy is used in cima. If one bought or made one for their wing chun, etc. practice it can be used for yiquan. The heavy bag does not make a good cima partner however.

[C.J.W.]

Before you come to any conclusions about the things that you believe you already know, my suggestion would be to talk to CMA/IMAists worth their salt and find out more about WHY all those CMA/IMA guys you saw in China were hitting fixed, hard objects with little or no give such as trees, poles, and rocks as opposed to ones that are soft and free-swinging like heavy bags......

I did and I found most of the CIMA people had a profound respect for boxing and MT but due to life in the mainland, when they were young, they did not have access to that kind of equipment. In fact I never met anyone as anti as you stated here. To them is was just another form of jibengong.

Well, actually what I had in mind was that striking hard, fixed objects develop different attributes compared to heavy bags. I'm not anti-heavy bag myself, but I do feel that it is crucial to understand the differences.

One thing you should know about CMA culture in general is that what you see, hear, and get on the surface as an outsider (especially a foreigner) is often not the same as what you will see, hear, and get once you are a trusted disciple or part of the inner circle.

[grzegorz]

Before you come to any conclusions about the things that you believe you already know, my suggestion would be to talk to CMA/IMAists worth their salt and find out more about WHY all those CMA/IMA guys you saw in China were hitting fixed, hard objects with little or no give such as trees, poles, and rocks as opposed to ones that are soft and free-swinging like heavy bags......

I did and I found most of the CIMA people had a profound respect for boxing and MT but due to life in the mainland, when they were young, they did not have access to that kind of equipment. In fact I never met anyone as anti as you stated here. To them is was just another form of jibengong.

Well, actually what I had in mind was that striking hard, fixed objects develop different attributes compared to heavy bags. I'm not anti-heavy bag myself, but I do feel that it is crucial to understand the differences.

One thing you should know about CMA culture in general is that what you see, hear, and get on the surface as an outsider (especially a foreigner) is often not the same as what you will see, hear, and get
once you are a trusted disciple or part of the inner circle.

Funny you should say that because I lied a little. When I was the outsider I was told boxing is bad but when it was among people I knew and the respect was mutual "boxing jibengong good." But I left out the outsider or tourist scenarios because I didn't trust what I was being told since I knew I was a stranger.

[grzegorz]

Before you come to any conclusions about the things that you believe you already know, my suggestion would be to talk to CMA/IMAists worth their salt and find out more about WHY all those CMA/IMA guys you saw in China were hitting fixed, hard objects with little or no give such as trees, poles, and rocks as opposed to ones that are soft and free-swinging like heavy bags......

FWIW I don't see a big difference between a heavy bag and mitts as used in this JIMA video, when a partner is not available.

posting.php?mode=quote&f=6&p=435619

Saying that I already mentioned I prefer a Wavemaster with a 50 gallon base (which can be filled with sand instead) because it has less movement and not unlike a tree with soft bark. I've done the rock and tough bark thing also slapping of cement walls but back in the divided states I get enough strange looks when my neighbors see me swinging a sledge hammer at a tire, I don't feel the need to be even more isolated from my middle class neighbors so hitting things in my garage works for me since I have nothing to prove.

[johnwang]

People in this forum may concern too much about "pure internal". It's just like in another WC discussion forum, some guys love to say:

- This is not WC.
- We WC guys don't do this.
- This is against our WC principles.
- Why don't you keep comparing WC with other CMA systems?

If we replace "WC" with "internal", similar words are also used by "internal" guys here. IMO, as long as one training that can enhance my fighting ability, I can't care less whether it's "internal" or external.

I prefer a Wavemaster with a 50 gallon base ...

I have one Wavemaster in my garage in California. The only problem is soon or later the water will start to leak. I have a 100 lb heavy bag in Texas outdoor. I also have a 80 lb throwing dummy in Texas that's not in good condition for throwing any more. I may hang it on a tree and use it to replace my 100 lb heavy bag instead. The nice thing about the hanging throwing dummy is it has the human shape, you can train

- groin kick,
- neck chop,
- hammer fist on top the head,
- low leg kick,
- move in between arms,
- move in outside of arms,
- ...

that you can't do on heavy bag or Wavemaster. The only concern that I have is if I hang it on a tree, my neighbor may call the cops for "hanging dead body".

[grzegorz]

Hanging from a tree, nice. Yes, my dummy is beat up too.

[daniel pfister]

People in this forum may concern too much about "pure internal". It's just like in another WC discussion forum, some guys love to say:

- This is not WC.
- We WC guys don't do this.
- This is against our WC principles.
- Why don't you keep comparing WC with other CMA systems?

If we replace "WC" with "internal", similar words are also used by "internal" guys here. IMO, as long as one training that can enhance my fighting ability, I can't care less whether it's "internal" or external.

So the name of this forum is : Xingyiquan - Baguazhang - Taijiquan: Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Discussing what is and what is not an internal art is, IMO, very appropriate for this forum given it's name. Not only is it appropriate, but one of this forum's contributions to the larger martial art community is to help define and hash out the parameters of what we mean when we talk about internal arts. So I personally don't have any problem with people saying this or that thing isn't CIMA or TJQ or whatever, they just better be ready to defend that opinion.

[chimerical tortoise]

People in this forum may concern too much about "pure internal". It's just like in another WC discussion forum, some guys love to say:

- This is not WC.
- We WC guys don't do this.
- This is against our WC principles.
- Why don't you keep comparing WC with other CMA systems?

If we replace "WC" with "internal", similar words are also used by "internal" guys here. IMO, as long as one training that can enhance my fighting ability, I can't care less whether it's "internal" or external.

WC guy here...

We have a wooden dummy and we have a 80lb (I think) heavy bag in my sifu's school. I don't see why the heavy bag is getting so much hate on this thread!

We have zz, sticky hands as the main bread and butter of training... but if you want to practice hitting something then there is the wooden dummy and heavy bag both. Why do we have to only stick with one? Variety is the spice of life, and WC doesn't exactly have the huge diversity of moves/drills that I see in most other CMA...

Things I use the heavy bag for:
- straight punch/palm
- hook punch (from the second section of siu nim tau)
- straight elbow
- front kick
- low round kick

I don't see what's wrong with using a bag. Surely if you want to maintain relaxed hips, shoulders, don't lose your balance when hitting, etc. when you hit real people then you can use the bag to check what you are doing?

I'm not saying you should be doing bagwork 24-7 or that it replaces chisau/zz, but it is more than a fancy decoration... it is a useful tool!

[windwalker]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PXc5yJ5hdn0

Grandmaster Chris Chan shows his striking power. Chris Chan was a student of Ip Man and teaches Wing Chun in San Francisco, CA. Footage Courtesy of Peter Behringer.

Met Chris when he was much younger...very cool guy....he likes bag work
old school way

[marvin8]

C.J.W. and Taste of Death, thanks for the explanation on the different family views on Yiquan.

Before you come to any conclusions about the things that you believe you already know, my suggestion would be to talk to CMA/IMAists worth their salt and find out more about WHY all those CMA/IMA guys you saw in China were hitting fixed, hard objects with little or no give such as trees, poles, and rocks as opposed to ones that are soft and free-swinging like heavy bags......

I did and I found most of the CIMA people had a profound respect for boxing and MT but due to life in the mainland, when they were young, they did not have access to that kind of equipment. In fact I never met anyone as anti as you stated here. To them is was just another form of jibengong.

Well, actually what I had in mind was that striking hard, fixed objects develop different attributes compared to heavy bags. I'm not anti-heavy bag myself, but I do feel that it is crucial to understand the differences.

One thing you should know about CMA culture in general is that what you see, hear, and get on the surface as an outsider (especially a foreigner) is often not the same as what you will see, hear, and get once you are a trusted disciple or part of the inner circle.

If you feel it is "crucial" to understand the attributes striking hard, fixed objects develop, why not list them here, rather than only suggest the OP doesn't know. And because he's a foreigner, he probably doesn't have the inside information?

There are several articles stating, hitting the heavy bag is better (e.g., health, effectiveness) to condition the body than kicking trees. Excerpt from, I kicked down a tree and wrestled with an elephant, http://www.singto.co.uk/Myths/Myths.htm:

Myth - Muay Thai Fighters kick trees.
Fact - it is true that in the past students of Muay Thai (Nak Muay) used to kick trees before the invention of punch bags and kick pads. These tree's are banana trees, a very fibrous soft tree, which are softer than most punch bags found at training camps in Thailand. It is a myth however that Nak Muay only used to practice the roundhouse kick on the tree's, as all forms of their weapons, the knee, elbow, punch and front kick where exercised on the trunk and hanging leaves of the tree. Also the Nak Muay would climb up a coconut tree, by holding on to the tree with their stretched arms. In this way they would develop their arm, shoulder, back, and leg muscles. . . .

Myth -Muay Thai Fighters deaden the nerves in their shins by rolling a glass bottle up and down on their legs.
Fact - this is completely false and should not be practiced by anyone. The so called deadening of the nerves (or worse removing of the nerves) is simply not true. Nak Muay spend hundreds of hours doing repetitive kicks on heavy bags, pads and nearly as many hours sparring with a partner. This repetitive training familarise the boxer with pain, and raises their pain threshold in any one particular area (i.e. the shin). This in turn may give a sense that the nerves are deadened, they are not, they are simply a little dormant. Stay away from training for a long period of time, and see how your pain threshold will have dropped when you next clash shins.

Myth - Muay Thai Fighters harden their shins by bashing their shins with a rolling pin.
Fact - this is completely false and should not be practiced by anyone. Although shins seem hard, they are living tissue and will give a little under impact. However rolling pins are very solid and give very little in way of leeway, so continuously hitting your shins with a rolling pin will cause them to become traumatised, resulting in possible non reservable damage such as cancer.

When you face the heavy bag as an opponent, you vary your attacks (i.e., not all power punches), while imagining listening (the general English term) to your opponent. Combinations can include offense, defense and movement.

FWIW I don't see a big difference between a heavy bag and mitts as used in this JIMA video, when a partner is not available.

posting.php?mode=quote&f=6&p=435619

Here’s a video demonstrating setting up your combination, using timing, broken rhythm and defense. You might try incorporating these concepts in your heavy bag combinations:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDS5Pj5ascg

Here the trainer walks towards (forward pressure) Broner. Broner pivots steps around and hits the trainer. After each combination, Broner either pivots or steps out of range to avoid attacks coming back (defensive responsibility). He is mixing defense, timing, and movement in to his combinations:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JDR_Yw7N8Zk

It's good to think about how an opponent will defend, counter or react to your movement, as you are doing your combinations. Hopefully, this will keep you a step(s) ahead of your opponent:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DfUy7rVKwvo