Internal pangs; grinding sand?

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Internal pangs; grinding sand?

Postby littlepanda on Mon Feb 08, 2016 7:25 pm

charles wrote:
Try the following.

Stand with feet hip width apart. Extend each arm to its respective side at shoulder height, palms facing down, fingers extended. Your arms form a T with your torso. Rotate your palms so that they face forward, arms still extended to the sides at shoulder height. Continue rotating them in that direction as far as you can so that they face upwards or even angled a little towards the rear. Keep your shoulders down. Feel the stretch and tension through the arms to the finger tips as a result of the twisting action. Feel the stretching across the chest (opening), the contraction across the upper back (closing). Feel the exertion necessary to maintain that position, that twist through the arms. Now, completely let them go and allows gravity to make your arms fall to your sides. As they do so, the arms naturally untwist, the palms slapping against the outside of your thighs, the chest and back relax. We'll call this twisting of the arms, rotation/spiralling in a negative direction. If you like fancy terms, this is an example of "shun chan si".

Stand with feet hip width apart. Extend each arm to its respective side at shoulder height, palms facing down, fingers extended. Your arms form a T with your torso. Rotate your palms so that they face towards your rear, arms still extended to the sides at shoulder height. Continue rotating them in that direction as far as you can so that they face upwards or even angled a little towards the front. Keep your shoulders down. Feel the stretch and tension through the arms to the finger tips as a result of the twisting action. Feel the stretch and tension through the arms to the fingers as a result of the twisting action. Feel the contraction across the chest (closing), the stretch across the upper back (opening).Feel the exertion necessary to maintain that position, that twist through the arms. Now, completely let them go and allows gravity to make your arms fall to your sides. As they do so, the arms naturally untwist, the palms slapping against the outside of your thighs. We'll call this twisting of the arms, rotation/spiralling in a positive direction. If you like fancy terms, this is an example of "ni chan si".

You can chose whatever words you want to describe the sensations and feelings or the specific anatomy involved. Doing so doesn't change the physical action. If you can't do the physical action - or never try to do it - whatever words you chose don't mean very much. This type of extension, twisting, exertion followed by retraction, untwisting, letting go/relaxation should be in every movement in Taijiquan. Without the stretch, twisting and exertion, there is no retraction, untwisting and relaxation possible and vice versa.


charles,

It seems what you've described is more about winding rather than spiraling. Doesn't the kua movement come into picture if you are talking about spiraling?

.
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Re: Internal pangs; grinding sand?

Postby charles on Mon Feb 08, 2016 9:29 pm

littlepanda wrote:
charles,

It seems what you've described is more about winding rather than spiraling. Doesn't the kua movement come into picture if you are talking about spiraling?

.


Did you physically try what I suggested? Does it matter what you call that physical action, be it "spiralling", "winding" or "twisting"?

If you want to discuss it academically, a spiral is a two-dimensional (planar) shape of constantly changing radius. It lies on a single plane.

Image

A helix is a three dimensional "shape" in which the figure is constantly translating perpendicular to its radius of rotation. Most actions in Taijiquan are helical, though most often people colloquially refer to them as spiral - and often "circular".

Image

If you perform the action correctly, it doesn't matter what you call the action.

Most parts of the body can be used in a "spiral" motion. Taijiquan links together individual parts of the body undergoing "spiral" motions. One way of feeling the "spiralling " actions is to work on feeling the spiralling of individual parts of the body individually. That involves rotation about the longitudinal axis while translating (extending) along that axis.

I give a simple exercise to introduce a specific sensation, action or feeling, regarding "spiralling"/ "twisting" the arms and upper torso, and you ask about the involvement of a part of the body that is outside of the intended scope of this specific exercise. If one is to benefit from any training exercise, one needs to understand the purpose and focus of that exercise. As I previously stated, a well designed exercise is intended to lead a student to a very particular experience. If you don't understand and focus on the intended purpose, likely you will not achieve the experience for which the exercise is intended.

This particular excercise, a simplification of one of Feng Zhiqiang's Hun Yuan Qigong exercises, does not involve the lower body - it could be performed while seated in a chair. It is a stepping stone in a progression to understand/feel specific actions that are one component of whole-body, Dan tian-driven motion. Learn to walk before trying to run.

There are other exercises that specifically train the use of the kua. There are other exercises, still, for linking the individually spiralling parts of the body. Far too many teaching methods show the student the end result without providing a method of how to get there. Few students "get it" with that method.
Last edited by charles on Mon Feb 08, 2016 10:01 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Internal pangs; grinding sand?

Postby littlepanda on Tue Feb 09, 2016 8:07 am

charles wrote:
Did you physically try what I suggested? Does it matter what you call that physical action, be it "spiralling", "winding" or "twisting"?



No. It does not matter. However I do differentiate between winding and spiraling. Here is my take on it.

Winding : Similar to what you've described in your post. I just keep my hands down while twisting.

Spiraling : Similar to cloud hands movement in taiji. Here you initiate the movement from your legs(calf and thigh muscles). Outwardly you can see the knees going in/out alternatively.

.
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Re: Internal pangs; grinding sand?

Postby Yugen on Tue Feb 09, 2016 7:43 pm

winding is the process of keeping the skeleton and shoulder and hip kua fixed. Arms extended to the side to pull the tissue. leave the biceps facing up (elbows) down. Rotate the hands like paddles in opposite directions. Use intent to try to feel the cross connection from hand to opposite foot. Over time you'll start to feel the tissue pulling. Over time if someone puts their hands on you, they'll feel the tissue pulling and moving. over time you need to start involving dantian rotation in order for the tissue to fully connect. I suck at this.

Spiraling is the act of us rotation of the arms and open/close of shoulder kua in a balanced method that creates cross body stabilization against resistance. A person pushing on you will be moved off of you without you having to 'do something'. You work on just moving with spiraling and intent on your own center and the movement you want to achieve without regard to the person pushing on you. If you are spiraling correctly they'll move effortlessly. i suck at this too.

A good test for proper spiraling is a 'four corners or dead angle' push. You stand with your left leg forward, right leg back, right shoulder forward, left shoulder back. Arms and hands can be forward in a fighting guard. Have your partner stand off to your left and they put their hand on your left shoulder and act as a wall to prevent you from moving your left shoulder forward. Now you spiral and keeping your legs in the same fixed position spiral thru to bring your left arm/shoulder thru and your right arm/shoulder back. If you are spiraling proper your partner will push away. If you are not spiraling you'll bounce off the 'wall' of your parnter's hand. I really suck at this, there's no way to fool yourself.

You can switch sides, have 'walls' placed holding your shoulders from behind, push on your hip kua, etc.
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Re: Internal pangs; grinding sand?

Postby onebir on Wed Feb 10, 2016 12:37 pm

Ed Ladnar wrote:In my case I think I had some kind of hitch or scar tissue in my neck that didn't become apparent until I started training seriously. It's gotten better over the course of about two or three years. Still a bit sore though. I wondered whether anyone else had had a similar experience. It was clearly associated with training, but didn't happen during training, but rather at random times when moving my head. Initially it was so bad it could be triggered when I swallowed.

I had marked, permanent chronic tautness of one sternocleidomastoid associated with (fortunately minor!) childhood trauma. Much of it resolved more or less spontaneously during a time when I was doing a lot of yoga. What's left comes and goes - often during/after some kind of meditation/movement work - but occasionally gets bad enough to make swallowing painful.
Insanity is repeating a nonsensical definition of insanity, and expecting it to eventually make sense.
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Re: Internal pangs; grinding sand?

Postby klonk on Wed Feb 10, 2016 5:42 pm

Funny story department: I had low/side back pain and worried that I had a kidney infection or something. Then I took a bit of thought to the matter. I had been doing some one-footed ZZ and had a past sports injury (karate) to the opposite leg from the side with the pain. So I rubbed some Ben Gay on the 'kidney failure' and it went away! LOL!
I define internal martial art as unusual muscle recruitment and leave it at that. If my definition is incomplete, at least it is correct so far as it goes.
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Re: Internal pangs; grinding sand?

Postby Taste of Death on Wed Feb 10, 2016 7:24 pm

Roy Williams, the head coach of the University of North Carolina men's basketball team, passed out from benign positional vertigo during yesterday's game. He blames it on the rocks in his head.

"It was already late. Night stood murkily over people, and no one else pronounced words; all that could be heard was a dog barking in some alien village---just as in olden times, as if it existed in a constant eternity." Andrey Platonov
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