Dai Mai & Chong Mai (Belt & Penetrating Vessels)

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Dai Mai & Chong Mai (Belt & Penetrating Vessels)

Postby I-mon on Tue Oct 14, 2014 11:08 pm

That second picture is what it's all about, IMO.
User avatar
I-mon
Great Old One
 
Posts: 2936
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 12:19 am
Location: Australia

Re: Dai Mai & Chong Mai (Belt & Penetrating Vessels)

Postby D_Glenn on Thu Oct 16, 2014 12:48 pm

I just wanted to collect some things I posted in other threads into one place, and also add to on this thread since it concerns the 'Belt meridian' in CIMA.

Wanderingdragon wrote:How bout someone break that down to laymens terms, we are not all versed in the meridians, are they front, back , north or south ??? MIX ;)

In a healthy person qi is naturally rising like water evaporates. The Ren Meridian (Conception Vessel - CV) starts at CV1 (Huiyin) in the perineum and rises up the centerline on the front of the body.
The Du Meridian (Governing Vessel - GV) starts at GV 1 (between the anus and tailbone) and rises up the center of the back, around the head, and down the face where it meets the Ren meridian.

Touching the tongue to the soft palate connects the Ren and Du; Hollowing the chest and tucking the tailbone under and deep breathing into the abdomen begins to reverse the flow of qi in the Ren Meridian and starts a circuit of qi flowing up the back and down the front of the body, this is called the 'Xiao Zhou Tian' (Small Heavenly Orbit/ Microcosmic Orbit). This is where you don't really want to put your mind on 'Qihai point' (CV6), because qi is already there, instead think about bringing it a little lower to CV4 (Guan Yuan Origin Pass) where it can enter inside and go straight to the area called 'Duhu' (Earth Door) which is above CV1 and GV1 and then continue along the circuit up the back, etc.

This is where it's really important to strongly clench up the pelvic basin which is the perineum, anus, and that whole lower area, because flowing the Ren Meridian in reverse can end up causing a collapse of qi that could, over time, result in a groin hernia, or other potentially worse situation. It may not happen during the time of practice but could cause a weakening of the meridians and fascia that are working to prevent a hernia from occuring. You may not be doing anything strenuous when circulating the superficial Microcosmic orbit, but later when moving some furniture is when the hernia may happen.

------------

If you look at what is ideally happening from some basic Western terminology viewpoint, it may help to provide some motivation to practice-

☱ Dui Trigram Swamp - The Break at the Top needs to be closed - so the tongue is pressed up against the roof of the mouth - connecting the Ren and Du meridians.

☲ Li Trigram Flame - The Break in the Middle needs to be closed - so the chest is concaved/ hollowed (pericardium relaxed).

☴ Xun Trigram Wind - The Break at the Bottom needs to be closed - so the tailbone/ coccyx is tucked under and 會陰 Huiyin point is held taught and contracting upward.

Combine these with deep, slow abdominal breathing and what physically happens is that the kidneys are relaxed and the Qi (normally above in the middle dantian) sinks down into the relaxed lower dantian, which can be likened to more blood draining down the Abdominal Aorta and possibly more blood being kept in a then dilated Inferior Vena Cava (of course we're not talking stopping the flow of blood!). This can be beneficial for the Kidneys which in turn may boost their production of the hormone called Erythropoietin (EPO aka hematopoietin). This hormone is mostly known for signalling the bone marrow to produce more red blood cells, but the benefits we're looking for is more from it's other non-blood promoting effects in the body- Angiogenesis is the physiological process through which new blood vessels form from pre-existing vessels; and inducing proliferation of smooth muscle fibers [Smooth muscle is found within the walls of blood vessels (such smooth muscle specifically being termed vascular smooth muscle) such as in the tunica media layer of large (aorta) and small arteries, arterioles and veins. Smooth muscle is also found in lymphatic vessels, the urinary bladder, uterus (termed uterine smooth muscle), male and female reproductive tracts, gastrointestinal tract, respiratory tract, erector pili of skin, the ciliary muscle, and iris of the eye. The structure and function is basically the same in smooth muscle cells in different organs, but the inducing stimuli differ substantially, in order to perform individual effects in the body at individual times. In addition, the glomeruli of the kidneys contain smooth muscle-like cells called mesangial cells. - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smooth_muscle_tissue]
This will likely, at first, be used to naturally promote the health of blood flow going to organs and strengthen other vital blood vessels and functions, but with use of our 'Intent' we can begin to promote the growth and unblocking of capillaries and micro-capillaries that go to the muscles, ligaments, and tendons of our extremities by looking at our hands, and then further increase the blood and flow of fluids that provide nourishment to our skin (improving the health and natural functioning of our Wei Qi (Defensive/ Guardian Qi).

So think about promoting a basic health of the body's major organs, then focus on promoting your body's capacity to contain Yuan and Ying Qi and Blood (whole body becoming a Dantian), and when that's built up, after a couple years or so, then you can focus on being able to manipulate your own Wei Qi.


--------------------

Now, for the new stuff- So the idea is to create a hollow, relaxed place inside the abdomen, which is what you want to become the sphere of your Dantian. This sphere is supported underneath by the lifting upward of the area around CV1 (huiyin point) and GV1. The deep breathing and pressing down of the diaphragm supports the top. If you only press from the top and bottom then the sphere will then just squeeze sideways out the front, back, or sides, (kind of like a ball of dough being pressed flat), which if the pressing breathing into the abdomen is taken to excess it could become an abdominal hernia. But you obviously don't want to even go there, or reach that point, so it's important to have a hollow, empty feeling inside the dantian, but it's even more important to have it wrapped back in and contained from the outside. This is the Dai Mai (belt meridian), also called the girdle meridian, and like a girdle it something that's synched up tight, like a weightlifting belt. But Dai or CheDai (vehical tire/ wheel) also goes back to the days of the wagon wheel where you have the hub (true dantian) but then spokes coming off the hub in 360 degrees of direction to form a circle, the outside of the spokes are held equal distance apart from one another by the holes in the outer circle of curved wooden parts but what really makes it functional is the steel belt (Dai) that is then heated and bent all the way around the outside of the wheel and nailed in place once it's wrapped around the full circle. When the steel cools down it shrinks and you have a complete and functional wheel.

In our body this wheel is like our Dantian, but it's not fixed to a straight axle but more like a universal joint where it's fixed but it can be tilted in any direction. The steel band should be solid, but like the wagon wheel the strength is eventually a passive strength, as it's inherent in the parts of the wheel, if any part of that steel band gets bent or comes loose, then the spokes inside can become easily damaged. Think of the vital insides of your Dantian are what you want to protect, the organs are the spokes, the Inferior (lower) Vena Cana and Abdominal Aorta are the Hub. But first you have to manufacture the strength of this area, it doesn't come naturally, it takes time and work (Dantian Gong) as it's like the blacksmiths who first have to forge the steel get into a shape of a strap and then later this 'hot rolled' strap will be heated up enough where it's workable but not too hot where it just burns or catches the wood of the wheel on fire. After the labor of getting the strap around the wood it's then hammered into a 'U' shape to protect a bit of the sides, then it's finally quenched in water to become a 'cold' piece of steel. So this isn't something that can be ignored, after you've built your Dantian you don't have to think about but should always keep it in check or maintain it.

If you are a CIMartial Artist and you don't have a solid Dantian, then what kind of martial artist are you? ???

If you just consider yourself to be a Daoist Cultivation Meditator but you don't have a solid Dantian , then what kind of Daoist are you? ???


Either way you can't ignore that these are physical first, then comes energy, then comes spirit. These foundational steps can't be skipped over no matter what your end goal is for taking on and actually doing these cultivation exercises.

Someone can interpret the texts and traditions we now have, in any manner or however they want. They can make their practices into the laziest exercises that they can possibly be, but don't forget that the reason we even have these traditions passed down is because of great people in the past who were anything but lazy.

Just think about how difficult it is to write a book now a days, you have the word processor, resources at the touch of a button, etc. and it still takes vast amount of knowledge, time, and dedication to see it to it's end. The people in the past, not only dedicated their lives to their practices and the gaining of knowledge, some lived as homeless beggars most of their lives and struggled to even find food and water, but later when their skills were recognized then they also found a way to hand write books, with pen and paper, in Chinese characters, and pass their knowledge onto the next generation.


.
Last edited by D_Glenn on Fri Oct 17, 2014 11:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
D_Glenn
Great Old One
 
Posts: 5262
Joined: Fri May 16, 2008 4:04 pm
Location: Denver Colorado

Re: Dai Mai & Chong Mai (Belt & Penetrating Vessels)

Postby D_Glenn on Fri Oct 17, 2014 9:47 am

本末倒置 Běnmò​dào​zhì (lit. to invert root and branch (idiom); fig. confusing cause and effect / to stress the incidental over the fundamental / to put the cart before the horse)

Or a synonym of that is 輕重倒置 qīng​zhòng​dào​zhì (to invert the importance of things (i.e. stress the unimportant and neglect the important) / lacking a sense of perspective)

Or, the more appropriate synomym for the martial arts and cultivation practices, is 舍本求末 She Ben Qiu Mo (To abandon/ give up (舍弃 shě​qì) the foundational practices (根本 gēn​běn) to stubbornly pursue (追求 zhuī​qiú) the final stages/ the fine details.) 舍弃根本追求 Sheqi genben zhuiqiu.

意念 yì​niàn (idea, thought), using 'Yi', is there from the beginning, but the beginner doesn't have the knowledge to just use their mind, you also have to develop the mind while developing the body, it's part of your foundation.

Build the foundation, then learn how one's physical body functions and can influence the physical movement guides and leads the blood, qi, and shen; and only then would you start figuring out how the shen can move the qi and blood, and affect the physical.

The high level/ final stages (meaning it's high or advanced because it's taken years to get there, finally), both in the martial and cultivation methods/training practices, are then just ideas, or concepts, and can be done with just a thought, but only if there has been years of physical foundational training. You can't only practice the final stages or imitate or mentally replicate the concepts and think your way to martial or meditation mastery.


.
Last edited by D_Glenn on Fri Oct 17, 2014 9:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
D_Glenn
Great Old One
 
Posts: 5262
Joined: Fri May 16, 2008 4:04 pm
Location: Denver Colorado

Re: Dai Mai & Chong Mai (Belt & Penetrating Vessels)

Postby amor on Sun Oct 19, 2014 11:41 am

D_Glenn wrote:
The high level/ final stages (meaning it's high or advanced because it's taken years to get there, finally), both in the martial and cultivation methods/training practices, are then just ideas, or concepts, and can be done with just a thought, but only if there has been years of physical foundational training. You can't only practice the final stages or imitate or mentally replicate the concepts and think your way to martial or meditation mastery.


.


I've heard it mentioned that the damai could be likened to the transversus abdominus, you think or does it encompass more than that? But from an energetic perspective you usually end up feeling a bulge in the kidney areas or the area kind of 'balloons up'. The 'ballooning' part occurs when you apparently wrap the kidneys. But this wrapping is not just exclusive to the kidney's. All the organs can apparently be 'packed' and 'wrapped'. Anything in your works/translations about organ packing/wrapping? Apparently the elbow move in taichi makes use of this packing/wrapping idea.

Also you talk about the foundational training pretty well but what about when it comes to locking down the structure, after everything has been 'filled' by working with soft energy. Doesn't one then proceed to use the 'hard energy' to 'harden' the structure? How often then should one be working with soft and hard energy?


What's this earth door or duhu the western related accupoint label for it?
Last edited by amor on Sun Oct 19, 2014 11:43 am, edited 2 times in total.
amor
Wuji
 
Posts: 640
Joined: Thu May 23, 2013 4:40 am

Re: Dai Mai & Chong Mai (Belt & Penetrating Vessels)

Postby D_Glenn on Sun Oct 19, 2014 12:22 pm

amor wrote:I've heard it mentioned that the damai could be likened to the transversus abdominus, you think or does it encompass more than that?

I'm not familiar enough with anatomy, I'll have to dig up my Grey's Anatomy book and study it.

But from an energetic perspective you usually end up feeling a bulge in the kidney areas or the area kind of 'balloons up'. The 'ballooning' part occurs when you apparently wrap the kidneys. But this wrapping is not just exclusive to the kidney's. All the organs can apparently be 'packed' and 'wrapped'. Anything in your works/translations about organ packing/wrapping?

I don't quite understand what you're saying, maybe you can word that in a different way?

Apparently the elbow move in taichi makes use of this packing/wrapping idea.

I don't know what the "elbow move" is in TJQ?

Also you talk about the foundational training pretty well but what about when it comes to locking down the structure, after everything has been 'filled' by working with soft energy. Doesn't one then proceed to use the 'hard energy' to 'harden' the structure? How often then should one be working with soft and hard energy?

I don't know how you define "soft or hard energy", I can't even begin to understand what you're trying to say or ask? ???


What's this earth door or duhu the western related accupoint label for it?

There is no western related accupoint, it's just the area above CV1 and GV1 and, like touching the tip of your tongue to the soft palate in the roof of your mouth is how you connect GV27 to CV24 (crossing the magpie bridge), clenching the pelvic basin and tucking the tailbone is how you connect CV1 to GV1 (which also has some Daoist name, a different 'bridge', but I'll have to look that term up).
There's a few ways to interpret 'Duhu' but basically it's where your 'Po' spirit can leak out of. There are some ancient burial things they used to do to prevent the 'Po' from leaking out before the 'Hun' had a chance to get back to heaven, it's all superstitious stuff, but keeping your 'Po' inside your living body is also an important part of clenching up the pelvic basin. Keeping one's 'Po' upright and raised is important, as the opposite is someone who can't even get out of bed they're so feeble and exhausted.


.
User avatar
D_Glenn
Great Old One
 
Posts: 5262
Joined: Fri May 16, 2008 4:04 pm
Location: Denver Colorado

Re: Dai Mai & Chong Mai (Belt & Penetrating Vessels)

Postby D_Glenn on Sun Oct 19, 2014 1:12 pm

Looked at my Gray's Anatomy book, where it's called the Transversalis Muscle and I think that might be it. Obviously not the only muscle involved but the key one, and strengthening the Fascia Transversalis and Internal or Deep Abdominal Ring.

Just looked up some stuff online and there's something called Hypopressive Exercises, which I think could be similar to what we're trying to do, strengthen the Type I muscle fibers to develop more of that passive strength of the core, where all the other core exercises strengthen the Type II fibers.

Thanks for making me look.

[edit--- I just want to add a quick warning -- so in our standing practices where we are hollowing our chest, etc. but breathing into our abdomen, we're obviously changing the structure and breathing in a different way but just because we're trying to breathe deeply into our abdomen does not mean that it's a breathing exercise! There's a saying in our school, something like, 'If you can hear the sound of air moving through your nose then it's not correct. If someone else can hear the air coming in and out of your nose when you're breathing then it's really wrong.' Same goes for actual movement of your abdomen, if you can feel a huge movement when you breathe in, then it's not correct; if someone else can see your abdomen moving in and out then it's really incorrect.

Subtle changes, that take a long time to build. Fascia is extremely sensitive to tearing, where the muscles are more use to, or are moving around and muscles are strong where fascia can be relatively weak, so artificially inflating and deflating your abdomen should also be avoided.

In the Five Element the first thing we can change is metal/ lungs, it's our breath, then develop and promote our cardio/ pulmonary system which gets into the fire/ heart element. This is the easiest to affect good changes, or make healthy changes, but it's also the easiest to impart or inflict bad changes, or unhealthy changes, and "breathing exercises" are the best and quickest way to screw up your own body and cause damage to your heart.

It was awhile back when Mixjourneyman was like "Yay, I'm learning breathing exercises in China!", and then a couple days later posted something like "I woke up in the middle of the night and couldn't stop my heart from racing, (it was beating out of his chest), and asked if anyone knew why?" Which shows how 'Cause and Effect' are not always obvious, and more reason to heed the warnings in IMA and Cultivation Exercises, but typically it's the warnings and rules that were kept secret, and still are, because nobody cares if their enemies screw themselves up, it's just one less person they need to challenge to a fight. ;)



.
Last edited by D_Glenn on Mon Oct 20, 2014 7:42 am, edited 4 times in total.
User avatar
D_Glenn
Great Old One
 
Posts: 5262
Joined: Fri May 16, 2008 4:04 pm
Location: Denver Colorado

Re: Dai Mai & Chong Mai (Belt & Penetrating Vessels)

Postby LaoDan on Mon Oct 20, 2014 11:02 am

D_Glenn wrote:
amor wrote:But from an energetic perspective you usually end up feeling a bulge in the kidney areas or the area kind of 'balloons up'. The 'ballooning' part occurs when you apparently wrap the kidneys. But this wrapping is not just exclusive to the kidney's. All the organs can apparently be 'packed' and 'wrapped'. Anything in your works/translations about organ packing/wrapping?

I don't quite understand what you're saying, maybe you can word that in a different way?

I may have an understanding of what Amor is possibly referring to here, so let me try to word it differently from my perspective.

In ILiqChuan we are taught to ‘clamp’ the abdomen by rolling the chest downwards (along with ‘suction’ at the sternum and in the dantien as well as lifting of the pelvic floor). In TJQ I have been taught to ‘button the ribs’ (have the feeling like the ribs below the connection with the sternum are being brought together – buttoned, along with concaving the chest and lifting the pelvic floor). In both approaches, the compression around the girdle is from the soft tissues (abdomen and pelvic floor) rather than the entire circumference like you described for the wheel rim.

When done this way, the bones of the pelvis as well as the spine contain the abdomen to a degree from the back. However, since there is some movement possible from the spine, this ‘packing’ tends to push out towards the back which ‘opens’ the mingmen region of the spine (as well as ‘opening’ due to the tucking of the sacrum like you mentioned). Although from my understanding the focus is on the ‘opening’ of the mingmen rather than what is happening with the kidneys, there is a ‘ballooning’ that I can feel that occurs there, which may be what Amor is describing.

This sensation may be because compressing from the back is not mentioned in the training that I received, since it is desirable to have the mingmen push out (‘open’). If a balloon is compressed from the top, bottom, front and sides, then, even if there is not much movement possible towards the back due to the bony structures located there, there is some outward ‘ballooning’ that occurs.

Dan
LaoDan
Wuji
 
Posts: 624
Joined: Mon May 17, 2010 11:51 am

Re: Dai Mai & Chong Mai (Belt & Penetrating Vessels)

Postby D_Glenn on Mon Oct 20, 2014 1:52 pm

LaoDan wrote:When done this way, the bones of the pelvis as well as the spine contain the abdomen to a degree from the back. However, since there is some movement possible from the spine, this ‘packing’ tends to push out towards the back which ‘opens’ the mingmen region of the spine (as well as ‘opening’ due to the tucking of the sacrum like you mentioned). Although from my understanding the focus is on the ‘opening’ of the mingmen rather than what is happening with the kidneys, there is a ‘ballooning’ that I can feel that occurs there, which may be what Amor is describing.

This sensation may be because compressing from the back is not mentioned in the training that I received, since it is desirable to have the mingmen push out (‘open’). If a balloon is compressed from the top, bottom, front and sides, then, even if there is not much movement possible towards the back due to the bony structures located there, there is some outward ‘ballooning’ that occurs.

Dan

JInbao also mentions building up the muscles of the back, the fascia transversalis also contains the quadratic lumbar muscles, and inside those (towards the center of abdomen is the iliac fascia which contains the psoas magnus, and psoas parvus, so you always want to think about, hard to describe how to put strength into them, not outright tension, but always have that thought someone can come by to slap your lower back, (which kills if anyone's ever hit you there even lightly or jokingly).
Also sit back, like you're riding in a sedan chair (two-wheeled cart pulled by a man), and most importantly here is to not let your knees go past your toes, as it's important to build up the strength in the lower back, where knees moving in front of your toes doesn't activate the correct muscles in your lower back, etc.
Opening and Closing Mingmen point happens in between L2 and L3 vertebrae, so rounding the lumbar out towards the back, like when in a fetal position, is what opens mingmen. The opposite position of the spine closes it. Incidentally between L2 and L3 is also the best place to do a spinal tap, and I don't know if mine were typical but I was always hugging a pillow when mine was tapped. So it's kind of related as that's the widest place to open up the spine.

Opening Mingmen is kind of like opening a bellow, or pumping air into the coals of a fire, as you want to turn up the heat in the dantian and lower burner and in a sense promote more blood flow and convert both fat for immediate energy while preserving and converting carbohydrates into glycogen that you can store in the liver and type 1 skeletal muscle. Type 1 Muscles of the core/ dantian are inexhaustible as they're in such close proximity to the liver, that you can work them for hours, and everyday. But you still want to promote the size and strength of the type 1 fibers even though the type 2 could last a really long time. I still get the shakes when doing some of our planks, but I forgot about when I used to get the shakes from just standing in our postures.

And the strength or tension of the muscles in the back don't have anything to do with mingmen, it's all about keeping everything wrapped back in from all 360 degrees, like the steel belt around the wagon wheel.

In the very front you have the rectus abdominus, which blend into the sheaths that contain the transversalis muscles.

An example is it's kind of like a woven basket, where you start weaving at the bottom of the basket and if the reeds aren't tight when you start, each layer snug and tight with the pieces crossing over and below then the basket will leak when it's all done. Basket weaving is an art, the first 100 baskets that a beginner weaves are all probably going to leak when they're finished. Building your Dantian is not something that can happen in a day. Trying to rush the process will likely end in disaster (hernia). Initially some muscles will be achy or sore but don't intentionally seek out or make your muscles sore thinking this will speed things up. You can use paidagong once it's established and this will help to find your weaknesses. But you cannot neglect any part of the sphere, or press outward strongly in any single direction, thinking it will be beneficial.

My $0.02

.
Last edited by D_Glenn on Tue Oct 21, 2014 1:41 pm, edited 2 times in total.
User avatar
D_Glenn
Great Old One
 
Posts: 5262
Joined: Fri May 16, 2008 4:04 pm
Location: Denver Colorado

Re: Dai Mai & Chong Mai (Belt & Penetrating Vessels)

Postby amor on Mon Oct 20, 2014 5:25 pm

@D_Glenn

I have to agree with LaoDan's description when he says:

This sensation may be because compressing from the back is not mentioned in the training that I received, since it is desirable to have the mingmen push out (‘open’). If a balloon is compressed from the top, bottom, front and sides, then, even if there is not much movement possible towards the back due to the bony structures located there, there is some outward ‘ballooning’ that occurs.

This is essentially what I was describing which is initial phase which is basically about opening the mingmen. Don't forget there's two mingmen's, the regular accupoint one you describe which is between L2/L3 then I think there is the one down by near the sacrum which is often referred to as the 'chikung' one. I think the latter one is the one just as relevant to dantien building and because its so far down its quite difficult as the sacrum area take a while to open completely.. You have to get this bit right first if you want to do the packing stuff. Sorry my terminology is not that great remembering but I believe the 'elbow move' is Zhou.

But the other stuff you said is all still relevant and just as important to get right:



JInbao also mentions building up the muscles of the back, the fascia transversalis also contains the quadratic lumbar muscles, and inside those (towards the center of abdomen is the iliac fascia which contains the psoas magnus, and psoas parvus, so you always want to think about, hard to describe how to put strength into them, not outright tension, but always have that thought someone can come by to slap your lower back, (which kills if anyone's ever hit you there even lightly or jokingly).
Also sit back, like you're riding in a sedan chair (two-wheeled cart pulled by a man), and most importantly here is to not let your toes go past your knees, as it's important to build up the strength in the lower back, where knees moving in front of your toes doesn't activate the correct muscles in your lower back, etc.
Opening and Closing Mingmen point happens in between L2 and L3 vertebrae, so rounding the lumbar out towards the back, like when in a fetal position, is what opens mingmen. The opposite position of the spine closes it. Incidentally between L2 and L3 is also the best place to do a spinal tap, and I don't know if mine were typical but I was always hugging a pillow when mine was tapped. So it's kind of related as that's the widest place to open up the spine.




I don't know how you define "soft or hard energy", I can't even begin to understand what you're trying to say or ask

I've also heard it called a soft wave or hard wave so might make more sense ;)
The soft wave is basically the rising you get when you mange to 'sink the chi'. Goes up the legs and side of body out to palms and somewhere else in between that Im not quite sure before ending back at the dantien. I think, from your posts, you are more familiar with getting this flow to occur by looking at your hands to try to influence it to go that way. This way is good too but sometimes I just prefer to 'sink' and then let it goes wherever. The more unblocked you get the more familiar with the route, that it takes, become to you.

As for the hard wave im not as familiar with it as above but I think it just goes straight up the spine. It might be the one you work with to do your Bolang Jin?
I just mentioned it because working with the soft wave doesn't really help you much for fighting because you're SOFT still. Sure you'll be fast and can do some degree of damage but not unless you harden everything down which I assume you get from the hard wave you can't use stillness to defeat your opponent. This is what I understand from 'investing in loss'. and you can not do much damage unless you harden the f*ck up ;)
Just my 2cent on this but speak to Jinbao and see what he says about this.


t was awhile back when Mixjourneyman was like "Yay, I'm learning breathing exercises in China!", and then a couple days later posted something like "I woke up in the middle of the night and couldn't stop my heart from racing, (it was beating out of his chest), and asked if anyone knew why?" Which shows how 'Cause and Effect' are not always obvious, and more reason to heed the warnings in IMA and Cultivation Exercises, but typically it's the warnings and rules that were kept secret, and still are, because nobody cares if their enemies screw themselves up, it's just one less person they need to challenge to a fight.

Haha yeah I remember mix's over enthusiasm and subsequent freaky trip LOL. But I'm sure we've all been there after learning a few techniques of certain teachers who are not qualified to know YOU. Only you know yourself and yep it's all potentially dangerous with life changing consequences for better or worse.
amor
Wuji
 
Posts: 640
Joined: Thu May 23, 2013 4:40 am

Re: Dai Mai & Chong Mai (Belt & Penetrating Vessels)

Postby D_Glenn on Mon Oct 20, 2014 6:37 pm

amor wrote:This is essentially what I was describing which is initial phase which is basically about opening the mingmen. Don't forget there's two mingmen's, the regular accupoint one you describe which is between L2/L3 then I think there is the one down by near the sacrum which is often referred to as the 'chikung' one. I think the latter one is the one just as relevant to dantien building and because its so far down its quite difficult as the sacrum area take a while to open completely.. You have to get this bit right first if you want to do the packing stuff.

I'm trying to figure out if this is the first time I heard of "two mingmen's", besides the one at L2/L3 and the other idea that the whole right kidney is Mingmen, while the left kidney is Yin Fluids, or just a regular Kidney, but IDK if I've ever heard of one right above the sacrum. Just did a quick google search and found a really wacky post by some hippy masseuse but no real reliable sources. Where did you hear, or read this?

In my search I did find an old post of mine from 2008: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=563&start=142 (and nothing's changed ;) )


amor wrote:I don't know how you define "soft or hard energy", I can't even begin to understand what you're trying to say or ask

I've also heard it called a soft wave or hard wave so might make more sense ;)
The soft wave is basically the rising you get when you mange to 'sink the chi'. Goes up the legs and side of body out to palms and somewhere else in between that Im not quite sure before ending back at the dantien. I think, from your posts, you are more familiar with getting this flow to occur by looking at your hands to try to influence it to go that way. This way is good too but sometimes I just prefer to 'sink' and then let it goes wherever. The more unblocked you get the more familiar with the route, that it takes, become to you.

As for the hard wave im not as familiar with it as above but I think it just goes straight up the spine. It might be the one you work with to do your Bolang Jin?
I just mentioned it because working with the soft wave doesn't really help you much for fighting because you're SOFT still. Sure you'll be fast and can do some degree of damage but not unless you harden everything down which I assume you get from the hard wave you can't use stillness to defeat your opponent. This is what I understand from 'investing in loss'. and you can not do much damage unless you harden the f*ck up ;)
Just my 2cent on this but speak to Jinbao and see what he says about this.

Ah that makes more sense. I don't have to ask him as I already know. You could call the hard wave a normal 'Bolang Jin' where you're just trying to get 1 wave following in time with the chongjili (striking of your hand/ punch/ arm). While the soft wave is a more relaxed and faster 'Bolang Jin' movement of the spine, the wave is omnidirectional from the dantian, but in this movement your extremities are kept relaxed and you sort of bounce the wave off the ground through your foot and then bring up that 2nd wave back up into your hand/ arm and carefully time it so that it meets the 1st wave inside the opponent's body, or in their bones, it's called 'zhen' (shock) strike. Doing this it's even more important to have a solid and compact Dantian because otherwise you can cause your own liver to move around too much and cause internal wind which can eventually affect the mind, this is a liver/ gall bladder complex syndrome. The Zhen trigram Dragon is known for using 'zhen' shocking power in all it's strikes and throws, and there's even a warning in the Zhen Trigram Dragon Shape Song by Dong Haichuan about being careful to avoid damaging your own liver when studying this.
User avatar
D_Glenn
Great Old One
 
Posts: 5262
Joined: Fri May 16, 2008 4:04 pm
Location: Denver Colorado

Re: Dai Mai & Chong Mai (Belt & Penetrating Vessels)

Postby D_Glenn on Tue Oct 21, 2014 11:11 am

amor wrote:@D_Glenn
I have to agree with LaoDan's description when he says:
This sensation may be because compressing from the back is not mentioned in the training that I received, since it is desirable to have the mingmen push out (‘open’). If a balloon is compressed from the top, bottom, front and sides, then, even if there is not much movement possible towards the back due to the bony structures located there, there is some outward ‘ballooning’ that occurs.


Are you agreeing that "...compressing from the back is not mentioned in the training that I received..."? Which the obvious answer is maybe the misunderstanding comes from the training you two recieved. :-\

Or are you agreeing with "...there is not much movement possible towards the back due to the bony structures located there.."?

And this is where the importance of the psoas (iliopsoas) muscles comes into play during Standing (ZZ) and Moving Standing (Xing Zhuang):
The term iliopsoas (ilio-so-as) refers to the combination of the psoas major and the iliacus at their inferior ends. These muscles are distinct in the abdomen, but usually indistinguishable in the thigh. As such, they are usually given the common name "iliopsoas" and are referred to as the "dorsal hip muscles"[1] or "inner hip muscles".[2] The psoas minor does not contribute to the iliopsoas muscle.

Structure

The psoas major originates along the lateral surfaces of the vertebral bodies of T12 and L1-L5 and their associated intervertebral discs. The iliacus originates in the iliac fossa of the pelvis.[2]

The psoas major unites with the iliacus at the level of the inguinal ligament and crosses the hip joint to insert on the lesser trochanter of the femur. The iliopsoas is involved in flexion and lateral rotation (supination) of the thigh. If the limb is fixed they involve in flexion of the trunk.

Innervation
It is a composite muscle. The psoas major is innervated by direct branches of the anterior rami off the lumbar plexus at the levels of L2-L4, while the iliacus is innervated by the femoral nerve (which is composed of nerves from the anterior rami of L2-L4).

Function
The iliopsoas is the strongest of the hip flexors (others are rectus femoris, sartorius, and tensor fasciae latae). The iliopsoas is important for standing, walking, and running.[2] The iliacus and psoas major perform different actions when postural changes occur.

The iliopsoas muscle is covered by the iliac fascia, which begins as a strong tube-shaped psoas fascia, which surround the psoas major muscle as it passes under the medial arcuate ligament. Together with the iliac fascia, it continues down to the inguinal ligament where it forms the iliopectineal arch which separates the muscular and vascular lacunae.[3]

Clinical significance
It is, however, a typical posture muscle dominated by slow-twitch red type 1 fibers. Therefore, it is susceptible to pathological shortening or contracture, especially in older people with a sedentary lifestyle, and requires regular stretching to maintain normal tone. Such shortening can lead to increased anterior pelvic tilt and lumbar lordosis (unilateral shortening), and limitation of hip extension (bilateral weakness).[2] ~ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iliopsoas


*And just in case anyone is confused, everything I'm talking about, on this topic, is about standing in Zhan Zhuang, or holding this tucked "Turtle Back" posture when doing Xing Zhuang (continuous BGZ Circle Walking, or doing the TJQ form as a Xing Zhuang (Moving Meditation); where in circle walking, you take a brief break from holding this posture when changing directions and quickly 'Fajin' (move your spine using 'bolang jin'); and in Chen 1st Form, you take a break from holding this posture in the movements interspersed throughout the form where you also quickly 'Fajin' (move your spine using 'bolang jin'). Zhan Zhuang and Xing Zhuang are for cultivating strength and a surplus of energy. When doing training for fighting, which is everything else in BGZ, and in Chen TJQ it's the 2nd form (or 1st form in a 'changing' manner and learning to 'Fa' in every movement), your tailbone, sacrum, lumbar and thoracic spine are in their natural, normal position, and you only quickly and briefly move into the "turtle back" position when you quickly 'Fajin' (move your spine using 'bolang jin'), most of the time you are striking and changing while your spine is in it's normal position, only when you 'Fali or Fajin' in a strike or throw does your spine really move, so it's important to learn how to do every strike and throw, that you know, in both ways. And of course first learning how to move your spine in a slow, controlled manner called 'Hua Dao' (Drawing/ delineating/ mapping out the path/ movement, or movement's path, rather).

.
Last edited by D_Glenn on Tue Oct 21, 2014 11:37 am, edited 2 times in total.
User avatar
D_Glenn
Great Old One
 
Posts: 5262
Joined: Fri May 16, 2008 4:04 pm
Location: Denver Colorado

Re: Dai Mai & Chong Mai (Belt & Penetrating Vessels)

Postby amor on Tue Oct 21, 2014 1:18 pm

@D_Glenn

I dont try to compress the back when I'm doing in Zhang Zhuang, just mainly from the diaphragm, hui-yin and daimai. The back just seems to naturally expand out (note I dont try to compress it). All this is pretty difficult as it is especially when trying to feel for the diaphragm to make sure its in position since its the most difficult part. While engaging in the other checklists you mentioned such as relaxing the hipflexors and iliacus which elongates the waist so that the kwa will relax while keeping head suspended so that the rest of the spine can elongate. If you do all this right then you naturally tend to just put all your weight on one leg supported by the quads and nothing else really so that the weight goes down through the center of the foot.

That other mingmen point is I think below between L5 and the sacrum so on second thoughts could that point (opposite it, located on the front, CV4) be the one that allows access to the earthdoor point you mentioned. It could be just another point on the list to remember but because of its significance they just call it the 'chi-kung' point, maybe? Can't remember where I saw it again, might have been something from BK.Frantzis or YM-Jwing.

The hard energy I referred to which you mentioned about in BolangJin is probably just another term for xue jin. But its different from the yang chi (normally associated with the soft wave) because the soft wave follows the path of the 8 extraordinary meridians (if I remmeber correctly) wheres the xue jin just goes up the spine but has to be held in the lower dantien. This is what causes the 'bulge' then you can rotate the dantien horizontally or shake (vertically) do whatever you want with it. It can be quite intense trying to contain this if your body is not well developed enough.
By the way BolangJin mechanical movement sound pretty risky, even though I'm nowhere near competent at this, I'd only ever use this in practice environment. But at higher level you should be able to use the yi to reproduce it's effects with hardly any discernible movement, no?
Last edited by amor on Tue Oct 21, 2014 1:22 pm, edited 2 times in total.
amor
Wuji
 
Posts: 640
Joined: Thu May 23, 2013 4:40 am

Re: Dai Mai & Chong Mai (Belt & Penetrating Vessels)

Postby D_Glenn on Tue Oct 21, 2014 1:52 pm

amor wrote:@D_Glenn

I dont try to compress the back when I'm doing in Zhang Zhuang, just mainly from the diaphragm, hui-yin and daimai. The back just seems to naturally expand out (note I dont try to compress it). All this is pretty difficult as it is especially when trying to feel for the diaphragm to make sure its in position since its the most difficult part. While engaging in the other checklists you mentioned such as relaxing the hipflexors and iliacus which elongates the waist so that the kwa will relax while keeping head suspended so that the rest of the spine can elongate. If you do all this right then you naturally tend to just put all your weight on one leg supported by the quads and nothing else really so that the weight goes down through the center of the foot.

That other mingmen point is I think below between L5 and the sacrum so on second thoughts could that point (opposite it, located on the front, CV4) be the one that allows access to the earthdoor point you mentioned. It could be just another point on the list to remember but because of its significance they just call it the 'chi-kung' point, maybe? Can't remember where I saw it again, might have been something from BK.Frantzis or YM-Jwing.

The hard energy I referred to which you mentioned about in BolangJin is probably just another term for xue jin. But its different from the yang chi (normally associated with the soft wave) because the soft wave follows the path of the 8 extraordinary meridians (if I remmeber correctly) wheres the xue jin just goes up the spine but has to be held in the lower dantien. This is what causes the 'bulge' then you can rotate the dantien horizontally or shake (vertically) do whatever you want with it. It can be quite intense trying to contain this if your body is not well developed enough.
By the way BolangJin mechanical movement sound pretty risky, even though I'm nowhere near competent at this, I'd only ever use this in practice environment. But at higher level you should be able to use the yi to reproduce it's effects with hardly any discernible movement, no?

It sounds like you have a different paradigm from what I was taught. It's probably best that you don't mix mine into what you're already learning. Pick one methodology from a single teacher, or lineage, that you believe to be good, or a teacher that possesses the mental and physical qualities that you want to strive for, and just listen to what your teacher tells you.

Bolang Jin is always a physical movement, it just gets more refined over the years, and old CIMA guys wear like 10 layers of clothing so you can't even see what their spine is doing. :)
User avatar
D_Glenn
Great Old One
 
Posts: 5262
Joined: Fri May 16, 2008 4:04 pm
Location: Denver Colorado

Re: Dai Mai & Chong Mai (Belt & Penetrating Vessels)

Postby D_Glenn on Tue Oct 21, 2014 2:17 pm

I just looked through a couple of YJM's books and B.K's Opening the Energy... book and they both have Mingmen at GV4 in the lumbar. I like to read about this stuff, so if you get a chance try and remember where you came across that and post or PM it to me. TIA

.
User avatar
D_Glenn
Great Old One
 
Posts: 5262
Joined: Fri May 16, 2008 4:04 pm
Location: Denver Colorado

Re: Dai Mai & Chong Mai (Belt & Penetrating Vessels)

Postby amor on Tue Oct 21, 2014 4:49 pm

D_Glenn wrote:I just looked through a couple of YJM's books and B.K's Opening the Energy... book and they both have Mingmen at GV4 in the lumbar. I like to read about this stuff, so if you get a chance try and remember where you came across that and post or PM it to me. TIA

.


OK will find out that other mingmen and report back.

But I don't see too much differences in our ZZ's and I'm not really strict on adhering to one systems bodywork methods because they are all similar with minor differences. Although I would say in response to Laodans' description about the bulge he mentioned something about buttoning the lower ribs, in my opinion its more about unbuttoning. Buttoning sounds like it would compress stuff which is probably ok for when you are done with the initial opening phase so perhaps it's just a technicality on my part or different methods.
But ultimately we all, as you have stated in the past, want to reach a state whereby we are open but closed at the same time.
amor
Wuji
 
Posts: 640
Joined: Thu May 23, 2013 4:40 am

Previous

Return to Xingyiquan - Baguazhang - Taijiquan

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 27 guests