Docherty Style Tai Chi and Health

[cloudz]

Hey Niall, that was my mistake then if that's not how you refer to Yin and Yang portions - no doubt they have been layed out differently. But the point stand that there are 12 static and twelve moving. I am not the only person with some knowledge of the set who sees them as essentially the same thing.

For the record I have trained with Niall who wrote the article you linked earlier. You should just spend the six or seven pounds and see for yourself how similar it is.

As for the rest, I suggest you get over it man - this shit does not give you any super powers. The set is aggrandized by Docherty group way more than it deserves to be in my opinion. Having bought the cool aid, it doesn't surprise me that my opinion wouldn't go down to great with you.

take it easy tough guy

There are 7 static in total throughout the 24 not 12. As a fantasy swordsman once said: "I don't think it means what you think it means" ;-) it doesn't sound like you have done them?

It's been a while to be fair and I have done too many postures and exercises to remember them all, so perhaps my memory is failing me... Maybe this is the original yours was ripped from ?

[cloudz]

ok look, here's my point. these exercises work the same as any other, there's nothing inherently special about them. just like there's nothing inherently special about a squat.

However people don't go around claiming squats or press ups will allow you to take blows - they may do, but it's kind of silly to train them for that purpose. There's nothing inherent in them other than standard conditioning that will help take blows. You can't "strengthen" internal organs in that way, so it's no different to other training in that regard.

So that leaves the training details - very important of course. But that goes for any movement or posture, more so for the "internal" stuff. But these rules and guidelines must stand for any and all movements so it doesn't actually matter what the set looks like on the outside - in principle it can just as well contain a basic horse stance for example and get much the same result from it.

[allen2saint]

First off, thanks all for your input.

Well, maybe I asked the wrong question...maybe what I am asking is would someone wish to help define, or point me toward some source of data on these internal processes that go on in these exercises or that can be applied to something like an horse stance?

[Niall Keane]

I disagree entirely, the exercises are not at all like push ups or squats or any other isolation strength and conditioning regime. There ate exercises certainly within the 24 that have squat like movents but these combine upper body coordination and connectivity that are simply not found in "external" exercise methods.

Chi in martial arts refers to the flow of yin and yang ie opposites transforming and aiding each other - btrath movement lower body upper body left side right side etc.....

Nei gung is about developing this connectivity in power generation and absorbsion. It is about identifying and programming the awareness of ones limits and from there understanding and programming potential movement that works around this limit. Kind like a hill start on a car, most martial artists of external ability roll back before they take off, internal power is the ability to smoothly turn into another gear or direction to keep pressure on the opponent as desired.

Take the jade rabbit faces the moon - it refers to a rabbit producing an elixer grinding the ingredients in a pummel and mortar. The initial downward movement contains these rotations of the core (dantain etc.) and synchronistic coiling motions of the limbs, generated from the centre. Now once the power is spent in the downward direction we recognise our limit and change direction to horizontal power generated through the back as the legs are spent, once back has reached its limit we then reengage the vertical and lift.

In practical terms we can sprawl in an shooting opponent. We can "follow" this with horizontal pressure left or right in a cai lang way so either be centre or orbit and further apply pressure to opponents structure and limits of movement and balance, we can follow still further and swing around his back and suplex throw. This os only one example of potential trained in the nei gung pattern to which i refer and is opposed to the typical recoiling reloading telegraphed intent p most fighters!

So the xcercises train nei jia movement and its common martial potential. Like I said earlier one cannot escape the internal even if intellectually unaware if the exercises are practiced diligently - this is not possible with simple squats etc.

Too many get hung up on the jump test and the ability to receive force which sure is about using the diaphragm and core rotations but is a relatively low achievement considering the potential possibilities of the exercise s.

CTH translated nei gung inner potential and this is closer to what's on offer. Knowing ones potential and limits in movement and power generation and therefore eventually with development of the ability to ting jin we can similarly understand our opponents and so hua and fa jin more effectively.

The large number of reps and the fact that the exercises deal with the most fundamental areas of martial movement found throughout TCC technique makes their implementation spontaneous and automatic without having to think about it.

This allows for better timing etc. Which allows more command of a situation and like where CTH would say "things get out of hand" at least the ability to absorb and minimise damage to the very core itself is a fantastic martial asset.

Ill reiterate I'm not saying this is the only path to nei jia ability but simply that it certainly is one. With the provision that they are practiced correctly hense my advice to the poster asking about them to get qualified instruction. After all taking even your simple squats there are good and bad ways to practice such, how much more important to get it right when the whole body and understanding of its power flow is being trained in an exercise.

[Niall Keane]

BTW the yin exercises are more about receiving force and developing the nei jia core abilities and the yang excecises more about the expression of power now that such ability is traind though like the tai chi diagram a little of one exists in the other.

Normally the yang set is not taught until a year after the last yin are learnwd for this reason.

[wayne hansen]

I just tried to upload an image from 1971 of a student of tan mon hung doing the set
But was unable
I learnt various exercises from the set from two students thru this line
Tan was a student of Chen wing kwong cth ,s uncle
So the set seems to go back further than cth
One teacher had the full set
The other teacher he tow tan would just give me certain exercises and tell me to practice them never giving me a name or telling me that they were a set
He was 76 when I trained with him
As I have said here before he could do 20 one legged squats on both legs with a vertical back touching his but to the ground
He was also the only person I saw who could touch his fingers to the ground in needle to sea bottom without bending forward

[piccolo]

Hi People.

This is a link to the 12 Yin and 12 Yang Exercises. It is in Cantonese, and the audio mainly describes the physical movements displayed.

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMzAwNTQ0MzY4.html

Not sure whether it is exactly the set shown by CTH. From talking to my friends, I understand there are a few different versions of the set. I think this one closely resembles the one taught in Hong Kong.

[willywrong]

I've gone longer than 100 days and didn't get no gong-fu, or even get a set of steak knives. Or green stamps!

After I married the girl a hundred days was nothing.

[Michael]

Hi People.

This is a link to the 12 Yin and 12 Yang Exercises. It is in Cantonese, and the audio mainly describes the physical movements displayed.

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMzAwNTQ0MzY4.html

Not sure whether it is exactly the set shown by CTH. From talking to my friends, I understand there are a few different versions of the set. I think this one closely resembles the one taught in Hong Kong.

Thanks for posing that.

[Andy_S]

Niall:

Thanks for the detailed explication of this set and its training background, very interesting. Sounds like true gongfu.

AFAIK, Chen Taiji does not, nor did it ever have this set or one like it, so I would have to guess it came later in the art's development. Of course, it may have got "lost" - always a risk with "Inner door" methods - but I have neither heard nor read references to it.

[Niall Keane]

Niall:

Thanks for the detailed explication of this set and its training background, very interesting. Sounds like true gongfu.

AFAIK, Chen Taiji does not, nor did it ever have this set or one like it, so I would have to guess it came later in the art's development. Of course, it may have got "lost" - always a risk with "Inner door" methods - but I have neither heard nor read references to it.

Well who knows... But i believe Chen style gets it gung training from practicing movements - styles in the form? But the way Chen form is done is vastly different from yang style and its family of styles. The way Chen and Zhao Bao practice form movement seems to be to maximum limit of the body with plenty of spiraling twisting and rotation and long low stances etc. so in effect in a way similar in approach to the 24.

Unlike say the version linked above which to my eyes strips everything effective from the set, makes it useless as a training method, how can one know ones potential when limits are not explored? How can proper alignment be developed when form and shape is full of hollows and bumbs? I have to believe this is hiding the method by displaying a false version publicly, as personal error - deviation from the taught method could not be so great.
This is not unusual in Gung Fu culture - personally I find it reprehensible as many well intentioned individuals are thus harmed / cheated! But it is culturally accepted amongst the Chinese to do so.

So for westerners genuinely interested again let me reiterate for your own good, learn from someone who can fight and can demonstrate the side effects
Of the training, and then be critical does it feel like a gung method- does it require great effort?

Even of my students, the international level sanda athletes, when I go through Nei Gung practice with them they find it very tough! Sure there are three levels to the 24 (practitioner, fighter and master) and I have them do the fighter level, but starting out even at the easiest level, one should be challenged physically and welcome the completion of each of the exercises.

These levels of regimes should not be confused with nei gung atainment levels - unity of breath and movement, unity of intent and movement, unity with dao.

Andy I'd imagine some of the Chen methods take a similar approach.

[cloudz]

Niall, the comparison is not to say that those exercises do the same thing - every exercise has its own benefits and of course there are different benefits. I use them as exercise examples because everybody knows them and and what they give, simple common things.

The simple point is we all respond the same to various conditioning styles whatever they may be. Exercises like this are all over the cma/ima world, nothing unusual. And there is no particular special component to them or the set that will help take blows. I wouldn't consider making things more demanding, challenging and creating tai chi specific mechanics in any particular exercise a rocket science if you have an understanding of certain requirements.

As I have stated i think its a very good and comprehensive set of exercises, static and moving. Not only giving strength and conditioning but attributes too. I'm not here to put it down in any way. What I did say is I am not a fan of some of the marketing, if I can call it that. There is a perfect example in Neil Rossiaks essay at the beginning where he references them as the mysterious neigung he had heard about. This is the kind of thing that gives the wrong impression to newbies. There is no surprise for me that someone out of shape, gets in better shape doing them - that's what exercise does for the body.

Let's not get carried away, I doubt a pro mma fighter would miss 'the 24' from his fight training regimen.

[Niall Keane]

I doubt a pro MMA fighter would miss them too, as they focus on the ground game and so seeking advantage towads submission in takedowns. This Japanese influenced sacrafice throw approach which is a valid approach is at odds with CMA and many other traditional martial arts approaches that deal with cold weapons.

A throw in CMA, and therefore the high scoring throws in sanda, focus on throwing an opponent through his void but through our substantial so we remain balanced and can bounce away after and not have to tangle up on the ground with blades between us. The ground exists in CMA but it is not the ideal, as such it is trained far less. Same with Mongolian wrestling and many traditional forms where a cold weapon martial culture exists.

The 24 like many other CMA training methods develop awareness of limits of motion and balance and associated directions of counter and recovery movement, my own sanda fighters who have frequently won internationals in amateur and pro find the sets invaluable. But they fight sanda - the appropriate format to test such gung Fu skill.

Again this question is not whether they are the only way to develop such skill, they are not. It would be ridiculous to suggest that they are the only valid approach in the whole of martial arts. So an elite fighter such as your afor
ementioned ufc fighter not employing them does not negate their effectiveness, it merely means that fighter has other effective training methods . it is false logic to then dismiss their effectiveness out of hand.

BUT.... They are integral to a system of TCC that has consistently produced high level fighters.
They are absent in many closely related styles of TCC who fail to produce fighters.
The 'successful fighters' all seem to be in agreement as to the effectiveness of the sets.
They demonstratably develop the ability to receive force.

You are missing the point with someone out of shape gets fitter.... ( but that does seem to be the level most CMA lads are at when considering training)
We are talking about developing martially and specifically TCC attributes. I have people who do marathons in their sleep and find these difficult I have crossfit lads who find them tough but more importantly they condition proper martial responses. That's my point, like i know strength and conditioning is a major thing to fighters but if its not tailored for the job of its just general then sure it can carry a fighter through local amateur competition and the likes but when fighting world class fighters you better not be wasting time developing cute biceps at the expense of martially relevant areas. As national sanda coach in an national body i get to see how other EWUF teams train - the Dutch for example have teams of scientists and psychologists working with their team. All part of their Olympic training facility. Now they take an athlete study his opposition study him meet with all the experts across all olympic sports and develop a winning game plan, plan out what areas the athlete needs to work on by have him go through chains of martial movement while this is recorded in digital modeling detail. this is analysied and a training programme is developed tailor made to ensure the athlete has power and responses where it counts.
Now that is in a way reverse engineering what's been in CMA for centuries in the shape of nei gung.

So no all exercise s are the same - far far far from it!

"Its just this or its simply that" is a non-professional approach to the considerations behind great training methods!

I know I've seen it again and again lads in fantastic condition getting their arse whipped on the lei tai, end up totally disillusioned and spiritually defeated! They have poured in so much effort... But.... In the wrong areas! Isn't this the exact same at lower levels of self defence with many TCC practitioners putting years into forms and compliant tui shou unable to knock snow off a rope?


As for the "marketing"

The test is to ensure a fighter makes training a daily regime when starting off. Knowing a 100kg is going to drop 3 times from a height of 2m on to your abdomen inspires seriousness.

Of course it impresses others, and if it attracts people so what? Its better surely for a TCC group to attract members through demonstrating nei gung abilities and having a good verifiable fight record amongst its practitioners than
Doing the more common TCC thing of silk pyjamas, empty force and totally unrealistic applications on students?

[wayne hansen]

Here is our other line of training with some words on noi gung and combat

http://zhong-ding.com/index.php/article ... rtial-arts

[willywrong]

Here is our other line of training with some words on noi gung and combat

http://zhong-ding.com/index.php/article ... rtial-arts

I used to watch Si Pak Chok Seng Kam (The Tiger of Penang) teach his seniors and one night saw him do the most perfect uproot using withdraw/push on my push hands Sifu Kheng Li Khaw. He gently flew backwards and up at about 45degrees. His weight was 225 lbs. I asked Si Pak Chok if he would teach me the sitting meditation which was two nights training a week for six months. My understanding was that this was required for developing Gold Bell Cover. Push hands was taught free style which I received about an hour most nights and being tropical the sweat dripped from us. Please excuse my spelling but I wrote them as they were said in the day.